From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

I once had LMI Forth on a Z80 machine and SwiftForth on an early Windows machine. I now do everything on a Debian 12.8 system.

The recent thread on CSV versus TSV got me thinking about how to
approach a couple of logically unrelated applications using a Forth perspective.

I'm looking for a Forth interpreter that:
1. runs on a Debian system and can launch existing apps and
then continue as appropriate.
2. compatible with tutorial material that may be suggested to me.
3. is free and preferably open source.

My formal programming background is a one semester course back in 61.
In the early 70's I knew some TECO fanatics and in the 80's did
assembler maintenance on 8080/8085 systems.

Suggestions/comments?

TIA


--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> writes:

I'm looking for a Forth interpreter that:
1. runs on a Debian system and can launch existing apps and
then continue as appropriate.
2. compatible with tutorial material that may be suggested to me.
3. is free and preferably open source.

3. points to Gforth.

2. There is the Gforth tutorial. I don't know what other material may
be suggested to you, but Gforth implements the Forth standard, which
tends to help.

1. There is the Debian package, which excises the documentation (then
use the documentation on <https://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/>) and is slow
by default. You can alternatively follow the installation
instructions for the bleeding edge snapshot on <https://gforth.org/>.

Concerning "interpreter", every proper Forth system has a text
interpreter. If you want to have a Forth system that uses a plain threaded-code interpreter for the compiled code, Gforth has that in
the form of gforth --no-dynamic (direct threaded) and gforth-itc
(indirect threaded). Gforth uses some threaded-code/native-code
hybrid by default if it can (not the Debian-provided package).

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2025 CFP: http://www.euroforth.org/ef25/cfp.html
EuroForth 2025 registration: https://euro.theforth.net/
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

On 12/2/25 6:22 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:

I once had LMI Forth on a Z80 machine and SwiftForth on an early Windows machine. I now do everything on a Debian 12.8 system.
*SNIP*

Anton's answer demonstrates I'm close to clueless ;<

I have had a casual acquaintance with FORTH.

I suspect what I should have asked might be

What FORTH is available that clueless/ignorant/???? user can ask
Debian to install?

What should I be asking? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???????? ?????????????????




--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> writes:

What FORTH is available that clueless/ignorant/???? user can ask
Debian to install?

There is a package from Debian for gforth on Debian 11 bullseye and Debian
12 bookworm, and on unstable sid, but not on Debian 13 trixie.

You find instructions for installing the snapshot on Debian at

https://gforth.org/

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2025 CFP: http://www.euroforth.org/ef25/cfp.html
EuroForth 2025 registration: https://euro.theforth.net/
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

Leo Brodie's STARTING FORTH is an excellent introduction to the
language:

https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/

I think all the examples can be run in Gforth.
--
David Meyer
Takarazuka, Japan
papa@sdf.org
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

On 12/2/25 10:58 PM, David Meyer wrote:

Leo Brodie's STARTING FORTH is an excellent introduction to the
language:

https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/

I think all the examples can be run in Gforth.

I found a dusty copy buried in my bookshelf. Thanks for the reminder.

Today's task will be to explore the links Anton gave in his initial reply.

Then I will use Debian's Synaptic to install the version of Gforth in
the Debian repository. The automation inherent in Synaptic will reduce operator error ;/ And although it may not be "latest and greatest", it
will be a known reproducible starting point in case I find (or create)
strange problems.


--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

In article <2025Dec2.233513@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>,
Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:

Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> writes:

What FORTH is available that clueless/ignorant/???? user can ask
Debian to install?

There is a package from Debian for gforth on Debian 11 bullseye and Debian
12 bookworm, and on unstable sid, but not on Debian 13 trixie.

You find instructions for installing the snapshot on Debian at

https://gforth.org/

Still much easier is
su
apt install gforth

This will give you a version 0.7.3 but that is reliable and plenty
good enough for the examples of starting forth.
Unfortunately this package is about to be orphaned.

A much simpler Forth you can get from
https://github.com/albertvanderhorst/ciforth/releases
The advantage is that you can unpack an archive, try to run it
in the unpack directory, and discard it if you don't like it.

A slightly older version complied with all the Debian rules, but wasn't accepted:
https://github.com/albertvanderhorst/lina/blob/master/dsc/lina_5.3.0-1_i386.deb This version is signed by my PGP sig (required for Debian contributors.)

- anton

Groetjes Albert
--
The Chinese government is satisfied with its military superiority over USA.
The next 5 year plan has as primary goal to advance life expectancy
over 80 years, like Western Europe.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> writes:

On 12/2/25 10:58 PM, David Meyer wrote:

https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/

...

I found a dusty copy buried in my bookshelf. Thanks for the reminder.

AFAIK the first edition of "Starting Forth" has examples that are not compatible with Forth-83 (which then evolved into Forth-94 and
Forth-2012). The online edition uses Forth-94 examples. I think
there also was a Forth-83 paper edition, which may be ok to use with
modern Forth systems.

In any case, if you try out the examples of your book on Gforth or any
other modern Forth, and things don't work as expected, the online
edition may give you an updated example.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2025 CFP: http://www.euroforth.org/ef25/cfp.html
EuroForth 2025 registration: https://euro.theforth.net/
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

On 12/3/25 8:32 AM, Anton Ertl wrote:

Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> writes:

On 12/2/25 10:58 PM, David Meyer wrote:

https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/

...

I found a dusty copy buried in my bookshelf. Thanks for the reminder.

AFAIK the first edition of "Starting Forth" has examples that are not compatible with Forth-83 (which then evolved into Forth-94 and
Forth-2012). The online edition uses Forth-94 examples. I think
there also was a Forth-83 paper edition, which may be ok to use with
modern Forth systems.

In any case, if you try out the examples of your book on Gforth or any
other modern Forth, and things don't work as expected, the online
edition may give you an updated example.

- anton

*ROFL* Your timing was essentially perfect.
I've been following the links in your first post in this thread.
As normal, internal links led to chains of links.
I found that both "Starting Forth" and "Thinking Forth" were available
in various revisions online.
I was going to ask if there was a list of those revisions and what was significant about each.

Thanks


--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

On 4/12/2025 2:23 am, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 12/3/25 8:32 AM, Anton Ertl wrote:

Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> writes:

On 12/2/25 10:58 PM, David Meyer wrote:

          https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/

...

I found a dusty copy buried in my bookshelf. Thanks for the reminder.

AFAIK the first edition of "Starting Forth" has examples that are not
compatible with Forth-83 (which then evolved into Forth-94 and
Forth-2012).  The online edition uses Forth-94 examples.  I think
there also was a Forth-83 paper edition, which may be ok to use with
modern Forth systems.

In any case, if you try out the examples of your book on Gforth or any
other modern Forth, and things don't work as expected, the online
edition may give you an updated example.

- anton

*ROFL* Your timing was essentially perfect.
I've been following the links in your first post in this thread.
As normal, internal links led to chains of links.
I found that both "Starting Forth" and "Thinking Forth" were available in various revisions online.
I was going to ask if there was a list of those revisions and what was significant about each.

Thanks

AFAIR 'Thinking FORTH' only ever had updated prefaces and was never intended
as a primer.

'Starting FORTH' was incompatible even in its heyday. Vendor supplied
systems would often come with notes explaining what was incompatible and changes necessary to get the examples to run. It was never an ideal
situation but given Forth's loose notion of standards, not something that forthers have typically worried about IMO. If 'Starting FORTH' is beloved, it's perhaps more for its cheeky style of exposition.

Should anyone require a forth primer, the following spring to mind:

"Forth Programmer's Handbook", Forth Inc
"Programming Forth", MPE (now vfxforth.com)
"And so Forth...", J.L. Bezemer

The first two are included in the demo or community editions of the compilers. The last is available online in various forms e.g.

https://thebeez.home.xs4all.nl/ForthPrimer/Forth_primer.html

Otherwise:

https://www.forth2020.org/books-on-forth

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

Am 04.12.2025 um 01:47 schrieb dxf:

On 4/12/2025 2:23 am, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 12/3/25 8:32 AM, Anton Ertl wrote:

Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> writes:

On 12/2/25 10:58 PM, David Meyer wrote:

          https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/

...

I found a dusty copy buried in my bookshelf. Thanks for the reminder.

AFAIK the first edition of "Starting Forth" has examples that are not
compatible with Forth-83 (which then evolved into Forth-94 and
Forth-2012).  The online edition uses Forth-94 examples.  I think
there also was a Forth-83 paper edition, which may be ok to use with
modern Forth systems.

In any case, if you try out the examples of your book on Gforth or any
other modern Forth, and things don't work as expected, the online
edition may give you an updated example.

- anton

*ROFL* Your timing was essentially perfect.
I've been following the links in your first post in this thread.
As normal, internal links led to chains of links.
I found that both "Starting Forth" and "Thinking Forth" were available in various revisions online.
I was going to ask if there was a list of those revisions and what was significant about each.

Thanks

AFAIR 'Thinking FORTH' only ever had updated prefaces and was never intended as a primer.

'Starting FORTH' was incompatible even in its heyday. Vendor supplied systems would often come with notes explaining what was incompatible and changes necessary to get the examples to run. It was never an ideal situation but given Forth's loose notion of standards, not something that forthers have typically worried about IMO. If 'Starting FORTH' is beloved, it's perhaps more for its cheeky style of exposition.

Should anyone require a forth primer, the following spring to mind:

"Forth Programmer's Handbook", Forth Inc
"Programming Forth", MPE (now vfxforth.com)
"And so Forth...", J.L. Bezemer

Unfortunately, IMO, all of these books stick too closely to the basics
of Forth. There are too few examples of how to effectively solve typical requirements for programming applications.

My point of comparison would be ‘Programming in Lua’. However,
translating that into Forth would mean expanding a few wordsets or
supplying some libraries. But then no one in his sane mind would invest
the effort in Forth anymore.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

On 4/12/2025 8:25 pm, minforth wrote:

Am 04.12.2025 um 01:47 schrieb dxf:

On 4/12/2025 2:23 am, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 12/3/25 8:32 AM, Anton Ertl wrote:

Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> writes:

On 12/2/25 10:58 PM, David Meyer wrote:

           https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/

...

I found a dusty copy buried in my bookshelf. Thanks for the reminder. >>>>

AFAIK the first edition of "Starting Forth" has examples that are not
compatible with Forth-83 (which then evolved into Forth-94 and
Forth-2012).  The online edition uses Forth-94 examples.  I think
there also was a Forth-83 paper edition, which may be ok to use with
modern Forth systems.

In any case, if you try out the examples of your book on Gforth or any >>>> other modern Forth, and things don't work as expected, the online
edition may give you an updated example.

- anton

*ROFL* Your timing was essentially perfect.
I've been following the links in your first post in this thread.
As normal, internal links led to chains of links.
I found that both "Starting Forth" and "Thinking Forth" were available in various revisions online.
I was going to ask if there was a list of those revisions and what was significant about each.

Thanks

AFAIR 'Thinking FORTH' only ever had updated prefaces and was never intended >> as a primer.

'Starting FORTH' was incompatible even in its heyday.  Vendor supplied
systems would often come with notes explaining what was incompatible and
changes necessary to get the examples to run.  It was never an ideal
situation but given Forth's loose notion of standards, not something that
forthers have typically worried about IMO.  If 'Starting FORTH' is beloved, >> it's perhaps more for its cheeky style of exposition.

Should anyone require a forth primer, the following spring to mind:

"Forth Programmer's Handbook", Forth Inc
"Programming Forth", MPE (now vfxforth.com)
"And so Forth...", J.L. Bezemer

Unfortunately, IMO, all of these books stick too closely to the basics
of Forth. There are too few examples of how to effectively solve typical requirements for programming applications.

Those are introductory texts.

My point of comparison would be ‘Programming in Lua’. However, translating that into Forth would mean expanding a few wordsets or
supplying some libraries. But then no one in his sane mind would invest
the effort in Forth anymore.

That's a decision for the OP. As he expressed an interest in resuming
Forth I recommend choosing a well-developed one and learning that - as
opposed to something that merely seeks to be standard-compliant. Else
one may well find oneself forever 'scratching with the chickens'.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

In article <6930da21$1@news.ausics.net>, dxf <dxforth@gmail.com> wrote:

On 4/12/2025 2:23 am, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 12/3/25 8:32 AM, Anton Ertl wrote:

Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> writes:

On 12/2/25 10:58 PM, David Meyer wrote:

          https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/

...

I found a dusty copy buried in my bookshelf. Thanks for the reminder.

AFAIK the first edition of "Starting Forth" has examples that are not
compatible with Forth-83 (which then evolved into Forth-94 and
Forth-2012).  The online edition uses Forth-94 examples.  I think
there also was a Forth-83 paper edition, which may be ok to use with
modern Forth systems.

In any case, if you try out the examples of your book on Gforth or any
other modern Forth, and things don't work as expected, the online
edition may give you an updated example.

- anton

*ROFL* Your timing was essentially perfect.
I've been following the links in your first post in this thread.
As normal, internal links led to chains of links.
I found that both "Starting Forth" and "Thinking Forth" were available in various revisions online.
I was going to ask if there was a list of those revisions and what was significant about each.

Thanks

AFAIR 'Thinking FORTH' only ever had updated prefaces and was never intended >as a primer.

'Starting FORTH' was incompatible even in its heyday. Vendor supplied >systems would often come with notes explaining what was incompatible and >changes necessary to get the examples to run. It was never an ideal >situation but given Forth's loose notion of standards, not something that >forthers have typically worried about IMO. If 'Starting FORTH' is beloved, >it's perhaps more for its cheeky style of exposition.

Should anyone require a forth primer, the following spring to mind:

"Forth Programmer's Handbook", Forth Inc
"Programming Forth", MPE (now vfxforth.com)
"And so Forth...", J.L. Bezemer

I recently reread the pdf file from Bezemer (dated 2001!)
It is relatively short, and well balanced (I think)
I estimate a third is devoted to handling strings, which
reflects what is a choke point for beginners.
(Note that I expect readers of c.l.f have all-round
experience and may not need this.)

The first two are included in the demo or community editions of the compilers. >The last is available online in various forms e.g.

https://thebeez.home.xs4all.nl/ForthPrimer/Forth_primer.html

Otherwise:

https://www.forth2020.org/books-on-forth

There are quite a few tutorials are to be found in : https://www.forth.org/tutorials.html
Among them Bezemer-s.

Groetjes Albert
--
The Chinese government is satisfied with its military superiority over USA.
The next 5 year plan has as primary goal to advance life expectancy
over 80 years, like Western Europe.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

In article <mpd2c6F2vr3U1@mid.individual.net>,
minforth <minforth@gmx.net> wrote:

Am 04.12.2025 um 01:47 schrieb dxf:

On 4/12/2025 2:23 am, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 12/3/25 8:32 AM, Anton Ertl wrote:

Richard Owlett <rowlett@access.net> writes:

On 12/2/25 10:58 PM, David Meyer wrote:

          https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/

...

I found a dusty copy buried in my bookshelf. Thanks for the reminder. >>>>

AFAIK the first edition of "Starting Forth" has examples that are not
compatible with Forth-83 (which then evolved into Forth-94 and
Forth-2012).  The online edition uses Forth-94 examples.  I think
there also was a Forth-83 paper edition, which may be ok to use with
modern Forth systems.

In any case, if you try out the examples of your book on Gforth or any >>>> other modern Forth, and things don't work as expected, the online
edition may give you an updated example.

- anton

*ROFL* Your timing was essentially perfect.
I've been following the links in your first post in this thread.
As normal, internal links led to chains of links.
I found that both "Starting Forth" and "Thinking Forth" were available in various revisions online.
I was going to ask if there was a list of those revisions and what was significant about each.

Thanks

AFAIR 'Thinking FORTH' only ever had updated prefaces and was never intended >> as a primer.

'Starting FORTH' was incompatible even in its heyday. Vendor supplied
systems would often come with notes explaining what was incompatible and
changes necessary to get the examples to run. It was never an ideal
situation but given Forth's loose notion of standards, not something that
forthers have typically worried about IMO. If 'Starting FORTH' is beloved, >> it's perhaps more for its cheeky style of exposition.

Should anyone require a forth primer, the following spring to mind:

"Forth Programmer's Handbook", Forth Inc
"Programming Forth", MPE (now vfxforth.com)
"And so Forth...", J.L. Bezemer

Unfortunately, IMO, all of these books stick too closely to the basics
of Forth. There are too few examples of how to effectively solve typical >requirements for programming applications.

Start with doing the exercises of Starting Forth.
I have tried my hand at exercises and questions in "yourforth",
geared towards illuminating the internal working.
Unfortunately I have zero reactions, so I cannot say
it is any good.

My point of comparison would be ‘Programming in Lua’. However, >translating that into Forth would mean expanding a few wordsets or
supplying some libraries. But then no one in his sane mind would invest
the effort in Forth anymore.

My plan is to publish the newer Forth (riscv) in the Chinese Gitee and
enhance it with practical examples.

Groetjes Albert
--
The Chinese government is satisfied with its military superiority over USA.
The next 5 year plan has as primary goal to advance life expectancy
over 80 years, like Western Europe.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

On 12/4/2025 3:29 AM, albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl wrote:

I recently reread the pdf file from Bezemer (dated 2001!)
It is relatively short, and well balanced (I think)

What do you think of "Forth: A Text and Reference" by Kelly & Spies? https://archive.org/details/forthtextreferen0000kell/mode/2up



--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

In article <10gscrh$ehgb$1@dont-email.me>,
Buzz McCool <buzz_mccool@yahoo.com> wrote:

On 12/4/2025 3:29 AM, albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl wrote:

I recently reread the pdf file from Bezemer (dated 2001!)
It is relatively short, and well balanced (I think)

What do you think of "Forth: A Text and Reference" by Kelly & Spies? >https://archive.org/details/forthtextreferen0000kell/mode/2up

I couldn't be bothered to give an opinion, for there are too many
roadblocks to view it.
I'd say that any text about Forth that is before the ISO 93 and has not
been reworked is not deserving my attention anyway.
(Unless it is documentation about a Forth running on one of my legacy
machine.)


Groetjes Albert
--
The Chinese government is satisfied with its military superiority over USA.
The next 5 year plan has as primary goal to advance life expectancy
over 80 years, like Western Europe.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

Buzz McCool <buzz_mccool@yahoo.com> writes:

What do you think of "Forth: A Text and Reference" by Kelly & Spies?

I have not looked in a while. The textbook part was not particularly interesting to me, but then, I knew Forth by that time.

IIRC the reference part was more interesting, but from a historical perspective. I may be confusing this with "All about Forth" by Glen
Haydon. At least one of them, probably the latter listed all the
words available in a number of Forth systems of its time, and what
their meaning was.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: https://forth-standard.org/
EuroForth 2025 CFP: http://www.euroforth.org/ef25/cfp.html
EuroForth 2025 registration: https://euro.theforth.net/
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

On 5/12/2025 3:28 am, Buzz McCool wrote:

On 12/4/2025 3:29 AM, albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl wrote:

I recently reread the pdf file from Bezemer (dated 2001!)
It is relatively short, and well balanced (I think)

What do you think of "Forth: A Text and Reference" by Kelly & Spies? https://archive.org/details/forthtextreferen0000kell/mode/2up

For a newcomer to forth any book can hold a fascination. Similar to
others by the time I briefly came across it I already knew forth. I
don't recall much but given the publication date and claim "For all
versions of FORTH" presumably it covered Forth-83 which was the basis
of Forth-94. Books handling more than one Forth standard were not
uncommon but made for some clumsiness. OTOH Forth-94 becoming the
'one true religion' has for me begun to grate to the point where 'I
wish it'd all go away' to borrow Zappa's line. What in the Kelly/
Spies book grabbed my interest? It was the screen editor included
which I essentially still use today.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.lang.forth

On 05/12/2025 18:41, Anton Ertl wrote:

Buzz McCool <buzz_mccool@yahoo.com> writes:

What do you think of "Forth: A Text and Reference" by Kelly & Spies?

I have not looked in a while. The textbook part was not particularly interesting to me, but then, I knew Forth by that time.

IIRC the reference part was more interesting, but from a historical perspective. I may be confusing this with "All about Forth" by Glen
Haydon. At least one of them, probably the latter listed all the
words available in a number of Forth systems of its time, and what
their meaning was.

- anton

Yes, it was the latter. "All About Forth" was a great reference for me
back in the day.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2