• Alain Colmerauer: Prologia cirque (Re: Secret Sauce of Dana Scott andRaymond Smullyan)

    From Mild Shock@janburse@fastmail.fm to comp.lang.prolog on Thu Dec 4 22:52:01 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

    Hi,

    Watch Alain Colmerauer juggle with 3 balls.
    Thats the secret souce. Prolog is a circus.

    Prologia cirque
    Alain Colmerauer explique avec humour comment il
    a dû jongler avec la recherche, l'enseignement et
    l'entreprise ...cette vidéo a été filmée en VHS en
    1994 à l'occasion de l'anniversaire de la création
    de Prologia à Luminy, Marseille
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyTgeUIb-OE

    But it is usually not circus of clowns. It was many
    times a circus of artists, that can juggle with Philosophy,
    Mathematical Logic and Computer Science,

    The contrary to morons like Boris the Loris,
    Nazi Retard Julio, and many others, like EricGT,
    Triska, Neumerkel, etc.. that forgot the roots of

    Prolog, turning it into an ISO nonsense, or
    Ciao with their "cause" of Prolog. Basically loosing
    the Compass of Prolog.

    Bye

    Contact XLOG schrieb:
    Hi,

    Philosophy is a mandatory and highly important
    subject in the French education system, studied
    in the final year of high school (Terminale) and
    as part of the Baccalauréat exams.

    France has strong philosophy education but weak
    interdisciplinary bridges, especially compared
    to places like the US, UK, or Germany where
    “logic” spans departments.

    - Philosophers may focus on conceptual foundations,
    argumentation, epistemology.
    - Mathematicians/logicians focus on formal systems,
    proof theory, model theory.
    - Computer scientists focus on algorithms, computation,
    complexity, type theory.

    But see the positive side. You could write
    a book about the glorious 1960s, that saw
    the Curry-Howard theorem comming.

    - The 1960s counterculture (“hippies”) were
    drawn to new ways of thinking: systems, feedback loops,
    interconnectedness — all ideas central to cybernetics.

    - Netherlands-based logicians were quietly
    inventing AUTOMATH and type theory. probably
    visiting a coffee shop from time to time.

    Bye
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mild Shock@janburse@fastmail.fm to comp.lang.prolog on Fri Dec 5 15:46:05 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

    Hi,

    Somebody attributed to me:

    "The smart system to print via Prolog labels
    and reference lines in Fitch proofs"

    But you find the Fitch labeling already here:

    Rewriting for Fitch Style Natural Deductions
    Herman Geuvers, Rob-Nederpelt - 2004 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221220647

    Bye

    P.S.: I had a lot of smart posted on SWI-Prolog
    discourse, an other post had a few tricks to
    nicely render proofs involving quantifiers.

    Still I was scolded and laughed at. At one
    moment the silly Philosophy Professor asked
    whether I am even human. What is the result

    of this ignorance. A prover that doesn't work.
    I first thought I would do some fuzzy testing.
    But then I hand picked a manuel example from

    FOL and not from propositional logic:

    ?- prove(?[X]:(d(X) => ![Y]:d(Y))). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinker_paradox

    It doesn't produce something useful, although
    it says it has found a proof:

    Continue despite warnings? (y/n): |: y. ------------------------------------------
    G4 PROOF FOR: ?[_4012-_4014]:(d(_4012-_4014)=>![_3560]:d(_3560)) ------------------------------------------
    MODE: Theorem

    === CLASSICAL PATTERN DETECTED ===
    -> Skipping constructive logic
    === TRYING CLASSICAL LOGIC ===
    % 210 inferences, 0.000 CPU in 0.000 seconds (?% CPU, Infinite Lips)
    Classical proof found
    G4+IP proofs in classical logic

    - Sequent Calculus -

    \begin{prooftree}
    \AxiomC{}
    \RightLabel{\scriptsize{$Ax.$}}
    \UnaryInfC{$
    false.

    Was the thingy even tested before it went online? https://swi-prolog.discourse.group/t/swi-tinker-for-g4-mic-f-o-l-automated-prover/9410

    Mild Shock schrieb:
    Hi,

    Watch Alain Colmerauer juggle with 3 balls.
    Thats the secret souce. Prolog is a circus.

    Prologia cirque
    Alain Colmerauer explique avec humour comment il
    a dû jongler avec la recherche, l'enseignement et
    l'entreprise ...cette vidéo a été filmée en VHS en
    1994 à l'occasion de l'anniversaire de la création
    de Prologia à Luminy, Marseille
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyTgeUIb-OE

    But it is usually not circus of clowns. It was many
    times a circus of artists, that can juggle with Philosophy,
    Mathematical Logic and Computer Science,

    The contrary to morons like Boris the Loris,
    Nazi Retard Julio, and many others, like EricGT,
    Triska, Neumerkel, etc.. that forgot the roots of

    Prolog, turning it into an ISO nonsense, or
    Ciao with their "cause" of Prolog. Basically loosing
    the Compass of Prolog.

    Bye

    Contact XLOG schrieb:
    Hi,

    Philosophy is a mandatory and highly important
    subject in the French education system, studied
    in the final year of high school (Terminale) and
    as part of the Baccalauréat exams.

    France has strong philosophy education but weak
    interdisciplinary bridges, especially compared
    to places like the US, UK, or Germany where
    “logic” spans departments.

    - Philosophers may focus on conceptual foundations,
    argumentation, epistemology.
    - Mathematicians/logicians focus on formal systems,
    proof theory, model theory.
    - Computer scientists focus on algorithms, computation,
    complexity, type theory.

    But see the positive side. You could write
    a book about the glorious 1960s, that saw
    the Curry-Howard theorem comming.

    - The 1960s counterculture (“hippies”) were
    drawn to new ways of thinking: systems, feedback loops,
    interconnectedness — all ideas central to cybernetics.

    - Netherlands-based logicians were quietly
    inventing AUTOMATH and type theory. probably
    visiting a coffee shop from time to time.

    Bye

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mild Shock@janburse@fastmail.fm to comp.lang.prolog on Fri Dec 5 16:08:34 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

    Hi,

    Well the problem might be only the rendering.
    Ultimately a prover itself should be verified.
    The Isabelle/HOL people did that for SAT solvers:

    A Verified SAT Solver Framework
    Jasmin Christian Blanchette et. al. 2018 https://matryoshka-project.github.io/pubs/sat_article.pdf

    What would be a funny project, to refrain from
    using infinite actual sets. Do a Gödel completeness
    proof with infinite potential sets, applying

    a kind of Scott's trick, maybe it would make the
    proof even amenable to be carried out in the prover
    itself, that is verified, requireing only a little

    theory, like for example Kőnig's lemma. Henkin
    model proofs are not really constructive. The involve
    a choice among A v ~A. The problem is when constructing

    a model, adding a literal A or ~A could lead in both
    cases to a consistent new theory. It would be easier
    when one of the literatals A or ~A would lead to

    an inconsistency, giving a kind of choice certificate.
    But the choice is kind of uncertified, in the
    forcing for Henkin models. Not sure whether it can

    be made a little bit more constructive. It also
    relates to the busy beaver discussion, the recent
    result that BB(748) is independent of ZFC.

    Bye

    Mild Shock schrieb:
    Hi,

    Somebody attributed to me:

    "The smart system to print via Prolog labels
    and reference lines in Fitch proofs"

    But you find the Fitch labeling already here:

    Rewriting for Fitch Style Natural Deductions
    Herman Geuvers, Rob-Nederpelt - 2004 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221220647

    Bye

    P.S.: I had a lot of smart posted on SWI-Prolog
    discourse, an other post had a few tricks to
    nicely render proofs involving quantifiers.

    Still I was scolded and laughed at. At one
    moment the silly Philosophy Professor asked
    whether I am even human. What is the result

    of this ignorance. A prover that doesn't work.
    I first thought I would do some fuzzy testing.
    But then I hand picked a manuel example from

    FOL and not from propositional logic:

    ?- prove(?[X]:(d(X) => ![Y]:d(Y))). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinker_paradox

    It doesn't produce something useful, although
    it says it has found a proof:

    Continue despite warnings? (y/n): |: y. ------------------------------------------
    G4 PROOF FOR: ?[_4012-_4014]:(d(_4012-_4014)=>![_3560]:d(_3560)) ------------------------------------------
    MODE: Theorem

    === CLASSICAL PATTERN DETECTED ===
        -> Skipping constructive logic
    === TRYING CLASSICAL LOGIC ===
    % 210 inferences, 0.000 CPU in 0.000 seconds (?% CPU, Infinite Lips)
       Classical proof found
    G4+IP proofs in classical logic

    - Sequent Calculus -

    \begin{prooftree}
    \AxiomC{}
    \RightLabel{\scriptsize{$Ax.$}}
    \UnaryInfC{$
    false.

    Was the thingy even tested before it went online? https://swi-prolog.discourse.group/t/swi-tinker-for-g4-mic-f-o-l-automated-prover/9410


    Mild Shock schrieb:
    Hi,

    Watch Alain Colmerauer juggle with 3 balls.
    Thats the secret souce. Prolog is a circus.

    Prologia cirque
    Alain Colmerauer explique avec humour comment il
    a dû jongler avec la recherche, l'enseignement et
    l'entreprise ...cette vidéo a été filmée en VHS en
    1994 à l'occasion de l'anniversaire de la création
    de Prologia à Luminy, Marseille
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyTgeUIb-OE

    But it is usually not circus of clowns. It was many
    times a circus of artists, that can juggle with Philosophy,
    Mathematical Logic and Computer Science,

    The contrary to morons like Boris the Loris,
    Nazi Retard Julio, and many others, like EricGT,
    Triska, Neumerkel, etc.. that forgot the roots of

    Prolog, turning it into an ISO nonsense, or
    Ciao with their "cause" of Prolog. Basically loosing
    the Compass of Prolog.

    Bye

    Contact XLOG schrieb:
    Hi,
    ;
    Philosophy is a mandatory and highly important
    subject in the French education system, studied
    in the final year of high school (Terminale) and
    as part of the Baccalauréat exams.
    ;
    France has strong philosophy education but weak
    interdisciplinary bridges, especially compared
    to places like the US, UK, or Germany where
    “logic” spans departments.
    ;
    - Philosophers may focus on conceptual foundations,
    argumentation, epistemology.
    - Mathematicians/logicians focus on formal systems,
    proof theory, model theory.
    - Computer scientists focus on algorithms, computation,
    complexity, type theory.
    ;
    But see the positive side. You could write
    a book about the glorious 1960s, that saw
    the Curry-Howard theorem comming.
    ;
    - The 1960s counterculture (“hippies”) were
    drawn to new ways of thinking: systems, feedback loops,
    interconnectedness — all ideas central to cybernetics.
    ;
    - Netherlands-based logicians were quietly
    inventing AUTOMATH and type theory. probably
    visiting a coffee shop from time to time.
    ;
    Bye


    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mild Shock@janburse@fastmail.fm to comp.lang.prolog on Fri Dec 5 19:54:54 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

    Hi,

    I always admired the French Teaching of Logic.
    This silly Philosophy Professor scolded me a couple
    of times with this nonsense, playing dumb and deaf,

    like a complete idiot:

    Me: LEM is derivable from RAA, in minimal logic.
    Prof: LEM is not even derivable from RAA in intuitionistic logic.
    Me: You didn’t use RAA as an inference schema!
    Prof: Our discussion is about logic and not about Prolog. I apologize. https://swi-prolog.discourse.group/t/needing-help-with-call-with-depth-limit-3/7398/78

    Still his prover demonstrates LEM from RAA:

    ?-prove((a | ~a)).
    \begin{prooftree}
    \AxiomC{\scriptsize{1}}
    \noLine
    \UnaryInfC{$ \lnot (A \lor \lnot A)$}
    \RightLabel{\scriptsize{$ \lor\to E$}}
    \UnaryInfC{$ \lnot \lnot A$}
    \AxiomC{\scriptsize{1}}
    \noLine
    \UnaryInfC{$ \lnot (A \lor \lnot A)$}
    \RightLabel{\scriptsize{$ \lor\to E$}}
    \UnaryInfC{$ \lnot A$}
    \RightLabel{\scriptsize{$ \to E $}}
    \BinaryInfC{$\bot$}
    \RightLabel{\scriptsize{$ IP $} 1}
    \UnaryInfC{$A \lor \lnot A$}
    \end{prooftree} https://g4-mic.vidal-rosset.net/wasm/tinker#prove((a%20%7C%20~a)).

    Please note that RAA = IP, synonymous names.
    Reductio Ad Absurdum and Indirect Proof.

    LoL

    Bye

    Mild Shock schrieb:
    Hi,

    How it started:

    Computers Still Can't Do Beautiful Mathematics - by Gina Kolata ----------------------------------------------------------------- Mathematicians often say that their craft is as much an art
    as a science.  But as more and more researchers are using
    computers to prove their theorems, some worry that the magic
    is in danger of fading away.

    How its going:

    Computers Do Produce Beautiful Mathematics - Dr. Larry Wos -----------------------------------------------------------------
    In addition to exhibiting logical reasoning of the type
    found in mathematics, reasoning programs produce results
    that are startling and elegant.  Dr. J. Lukasiewicz was well
    recognized for his contributions to areas of logic,

    and yet the program OTTER recently found a proof far shorter and
    more elegant than that produced by this eminent researcher,
    and the program used the same notation and style of
    reasoning.  Mathematicians and logicians find elegance in
    shorter proofs.

    In August of 1990, Dr. Dana Scott of Carnegie Mellon
    University attended a workshop at Argonne National
    Laboratory.  There he learned of OTTER and some of its uses
    and successes.  Upon returning to his university, Dr.
    Scott's curiosity prompted him to suggest (via electronic
    mail) 68 theorems for consideration by the computer.

    His curiosity was almost immediately satisfied, for the sought-
    after 68 proofs were returned with the comment that all were
    obtained in a single computer run with the program--and in
    less than 16 CPU minutes on a Sun 4 workstation.  Dr. Scott
    now uses his own copy of OTTER on his Macintosh.

    Dr. R. Smullyan of the University of Indiana showed
    great pleasure and surprise at learning of some of the
    successes achieved by an automated reasoning program.  As
    evidence of his interest, he posed a number of questions,
    receiving in turn the answers to all but one of them--a
    question that is still open. https://theory.stanford.edu/~uribe/mail/qed.messages/91.html

    Bye

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mild Shock@janburse@fastmail.fm to comp.lang.prolog on Fri Dec 5 20:12:07 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.lang.prolog

    Hi,

    The episode told me everything about the Character
    of the silly Philosophy Professor:

    Me: LEM is derivable from RAA, in minimal logic.
    Prof: LEM is not even derivable from RAA in intuitionistic logic.
    Me: You didn’t use RAA as an inference schema!
    Prof: Our discussion is about logic and not about Prolog. I apologize.

    https://swi-prolog.discourse.group/t/needing-help-with-call-with-depth-limit-3/7398/78

    There were similar episodes, on the SWI-Prolog discourse
    forum. In the same style. So there is no loss that I cannot

    post anymore on SWI-Prolog discourse. But please:

    *NEVER EVER CITE ME IN YOUR WORK*

    Bye

    Mild Shock schrieb:
    Hi,

    I always admired the French Teaching of Logic.
    This silly Philosophy Professor scolded me a couple
    of times with this nonsense, playing dumb and deaf,

    like a complete idiot:

    Me: LEM is derivable from RAA, in minimal logic.
    Prof: LEM is not even derivable from RAA in intuitionistic logic.
    Me: You didn’t use RAA as an inference schema!
    Prof: Our discussion is about logic and not about Prolog. I apologize. https://swi-prolog.discourse.group/t/needing-help-with-call-with-depth-limit-3/7398/78


    Still his prover demonstrates LEM from RAA:

    ?-prove((a | ~a)).
    \begin{prooftree}
    \AxiomC{\scriptsize{1}}
    \noLine
    \UnaryInfC{$ \lnot (A \lor  \lnot A)$}
    \RightLabel{\scriptsize{$ \lor\to E$}}
    \UnaryInfC{$ \lnot  \lnot A$}
    \AxiomC{\scriptsize{1}}
    \noLine
    \UnaryInfC{$ \lnot (A \lor  \lnot A)$}
    \RightLabel{\scriptsize{$ \lor\to E$}}
    \UnaryInfC{$ \lnot A$}
    \RightLabel{\scriptsize{$ \to E $}}
    \BinaryInfC{$\bot$}
    \RightLabel{\scriptsize{$ IP $}  1}
    \UnaryInfC{$A \lor  \lnot A$}
    \end{prooftree} https://g4-mic.vidal-rosset.net/wasm/tinker#prove((a%20%7C%20~a)).

    Please note that RAA = IP, synonymous names.
    Reductio Ad Absurdum and Indirect Proof.

    LoL

    Bye

    Mild Shock schrieb:
    Hi,

    How it started:

    Computers Still Can't Do Beautiful Mathematics - by Gina Kolata
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Mathematicians often say that their craft is as much an art
    as a science.  But as more and more researchers are using
    computers to prove their theorems, some worry that the magic
    is in danger of fading away.

    How its going:

    Computers Do Produce Beautiful Mathematics - Dr. Larry Wos
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    In addition to exhibiting logical reasoning of the type
    found in mathematics, reasoning programs produce results
    that are startling and elegant.  Dr. J. Lukasiewicz was well
    recognized for his contributions to areas of logic,

    and yet the program OTTER recently found a proof far shorter and
    more elegant than that produced by this eminent researcher,
    and the program used the same notation and style of
    reasoning.  Mathematicians and logicians find elegance in
    shorter proofs.

    In August of 1990, Dr. Dana Scott of Carnegie Mellon
    University attended a workshop at Argonne National
    Laboratory.  There he learned of OTTER and some of its uses
    and successes.  Upon returning to his university, Dr.
    Scott's curiosity prompted him to suggest (via electronic
    mail) 68 theorems for consideration by the computer.

    His curiosity was almost immediately satisfied, for the sought-
    after 68 proofs were returned with the comment that all were
    obtained in a single computer run with the program--and in
    less than 16 CPU minutes on a Sun 4 workstation.  Dr. Scott
    now uses his own copy of OTTER on his Macintosh.

    Dr. R. Smullyan of the University of Indiana showed
    great pleasure and surprise at learning of some of the
    successes achieved by an automated reasoning program.  As
    evidence of his interest, he posed a number of questions,
    receiving in turn the answers to all but one of them--a
    question that is still open.
    https://theory.stanford.edu/~uribe/mail/qed.messages/91.html

    Bye


    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2