From Newsgroup: comp.lang.tcl

Is Expect available at all for Windows? If not, is there any way to
build it on Windows? I am almost certain that Activestate used to have
it in their Tcl version at one point so it seems technically possible.

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From Newsgroup: comp.lang.tcl

On 7/3/2025 10:35 AM, saito wrote:

Is Expect available at all for Windows? If not, is there any way to
build it on Windows?  I am almost certain that Activestate used to have
it in their Tcl version at one point so it seems technically possible.

It won't build 64-bit due to forced executable code that doesn't have an equivalent for 64. It's evil anyways and triggers security problems on protected system executables. IOW, E4W behaves like a virus. It needs
to be reworked to replace the debugger method to use something called
Detours.

https://github.com/microsoft/Detours
https://github.com/davygrvy/expect4win

https://github.com/davygrvy/expect4win/blob/47859c05d05c6c624517dac1552316d448e864b4/win/expWinConsoleDebugger.hpp#L208

The evil stuff starts here: https://github.com/davygrvy/expect4win/blob/47859c05d05c6c624517dac1552316d448e864b4/win/expWinConsoleDebugger.cpp#L662

All the breakpoints should be detours instead that would end-up doing
the same. It can be done by something with some code Fu. This isn't me anymore. Maybe one day when I relearn how to code. It is on my list.
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From Newsgroup: comp.lang.tcl

Dear David,
thanks for the great answer.
Is expect a candidate for the orphaned repository?
Ashok already works 25 hours per day on Tcl, but this might be
interesting for him. Are you ready to support?

Thanks for all,
Harald

Am 11.08.2025 um 03:39 schrieb David Gravereaux:

On 7/3/2025 10:35 AM, saito wrote:

Is Expect available at all for Windows? If not, is there any way to
build it on Windows?  I am almost certain that Activestate used to
have it in their Tcl version at one point so it seems technically
possible.

It won't build 64-bit due to forced executable code that doesn't have an equivalent for 64.  It's evil anyways and triggers security problems on protected system executables.  IOW, E4W behaves like a virus.  It needs
to be reworked to replace the debugger method to use something called Detours.

https://github.com/microsoft/Detours
https://github.com/davygrvy/expect4win

https://github.com/davygrvy/expect4win/ blob/47859c05d05c6c624517dac1552316d448e864b4/win/ expWinConsoleDebugger.hpp#L208

The evil stuff starts here:
https://github.com/davygrvy/expect4win/ blob/47859c05d05c6c624517dac1552316d448e864b4/win/ expWinConsoleDebugger.cpp#L662

All the breakpoints should be detours instead that would end-up doing
the same.  It can be done by something with some code Fu.  This isn't me anymore.  Maybe one day when I relearn how to code.  It is on my list.

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From Newsgroup: comp.lang.tcl

On 8/10/2025 11:40 PM, Harald Oehlmann wrote:

Dear David,
thanks for the great answer.
Is expect a candidate for the orphaned repository?
Ashok already works 25 hours per day on Tcl, but this might be
interesting for him. Are you ready to support?

The best I can do, for now, is to point a willful C++ coder in the right direction. The breakpoint trap method and detours do essentially the
same thing.

Start here https://github.com/davygrvy/expect4win/blob/47859c05d05c6c624517dac1552316d448e864b4/win/expWinSpawnChan.cpp#L110

Make a new class that also derives from ConsoleDebuggerCallback similar
to ConsoleDebugger but uses Detours to do the same work. One wouldn't
need to destroy the existing code. Just add some compile-time macros. Something like:

#ifndef USE_DETOURS
debugger = new ConsoleDebugger(cmdline, env, dir, show, injPath,
outLL, errLL, readyUp, *this);
#else
debugger = new ConsoleDetourDbgr(cmdline, env, dir, show, injPath,
outLL, errLL, readyUp, *this);
#endif


Now fill in the responsibilities of the new ConsoleDetourDbgr class
according to the template.
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From Newsgroup: comp.lang.tcl

On 8/12/2025 2:16 AM, David Gravereaux wrote:

according to the template

Not templated enough from base classes though, sorry. It will be work
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From Newsgroup: comp.lang.tcl

On 8/10/2025 9:39 PM, David Gravereaux wrote:

It won't build 64-bit due to forced executable code that doesn't have an equivalent for 64.  It's evil anyways and triggers security problems on protected system executables.  IOW, E4W behaves like a virus.  It needs
to be reworked to replace the debugger method to use something called Detours.

...

All the breakpoints should be detours instead that would end-up doing
the same.  It can be done by something with some code Fu.  This isn't me anymore.  Maybe one day when I relearn how to code.  It is on my list.

Hi,

I had seen your name mentioned in AS documents pertaining to Expect. I
am glad you are working on a new version. If it builds for 32bit, that
is fine. I am confused though: is it in a finished or usable state now?
I saw your later comments laying out some of the future work which added
to my confusion.
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From Newsgroup: comp.lang.tcl

Hi saito,

On 8/10/2025 9:39 PM, David Gravereaux wrote:

It won't build 64-bit due to forced executable code that doesn't have an
equivalent for 64.  It's evil anyways and triggers security problems on
protected system executables.  IOW, E4W behaves like a virus.  It needs

Hi,

I had seen your name mentioned in AS documents pertaining to Expect. I
am glad you are working on a new version. If it builds for 32bit, that
is fine. I am confused though: is it in a finished or usable state now?
I saw your later comments laying out some of the future work which added
to my confusion.

I am afraid you misunderstood David. In the posting you cite above it
says near (or practically at) the end
This isn't me anymore.
Sorry
Helmut
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From Newsgroup: comp.lang.tcl

On 8/12/2025 1:33 PM, saito wrote:

I had seen your name mentioned in AS documents pertaining to Expect.  I
am glad you are working on a new version. If it builds for 32bit, that
is fine. I am confused though: is it in a finished or usable state now?
I saw your later comments laying out some of the future work which added
to my confusion.

What is on my github is the old original code from about 2003 plus fixes
that AS maintained. It had worked on XP then. It does not work now.
I'm busy with other stuff, that isn't programming. I know what needs to
be done, but I'm not much of a coder these days due to health issues. I
might get to it once I relearn C++. Use it or lose it is no joke.
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From Newsgroup: comp.lang.tcl

On 8/12/2025 8:01 PM, David Gravereaux wrote:

On 8/12/2025 1:33 PM, saito wrote:

What is on my github is the old original code from about 2003 plus fixes that AS maintained.  It had worked on XP then.  It does not work now.
I'm busy with other stuff, that isn't programming.  I know what needs to
be done, but I'm not much of a coder these days due to health issues.  I might get to it once I relearn C++.  Use it or lose it is no joke.

No worries and best wishes! That is what I thought you were saying as well.

In any case, Expect seemed like an interesting choice at the time when I posted about it but it turned out to be a no-go solution. No big deal.



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From Newsgroup: comp.lang.tcl

Harald,

Yes, E4W is orphaned. I don't have the focus. I see the forest, but
not the trees. Add the injector.dll to the spawned process with this.
All security issues are fixed using the Detours API. The trampoline
functions will be similar to the breakpoints (ConsoleDebugger::On*)

https://github.com/microsoft/Detours/wiki/DetourCreateProcessWithDlls
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From Newsgroup: comp.lang.tcl

On 8/13/2025 4:28 PM, David Gravereaux wrote:

The trampoline functions will be similar to the breakpoints (ConsoleDebugger::On*)

Wow, no.

There is a huge architecture shift going on with Detours. The
trampoline functions are run in the slave's process (the hooks/traps
would be part of injector.dll) not just a thread processing breakpoints
in the host like my work. This will make [interact] an even further
away feature and more like Gordon's original code that converted calls
like FillConsoleOutputCharacter into a stream with VT100 escape
sequences. It would be more like a unix tty, though. I'd have to add
another mailboxed IPC stream but going from injector into expect for the [read] direction. VT100 escape sequences would then have to be decoded
into Console API calls to emulate [interact].

This is too heavy of a lift for me.

Maybe I could just read through the Detours source and come up with
better clues how to force-load dlls that won't trigger DEP?

https://github.com/microsoft/Detours/blob/main/src/uimports.cpp#L17

Detours goes directly to the import table. I can't grok this ;) I'm
done. This is too beyond me.


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From Newsgroup: comp.lang.tcl

On 8/13/2025 4:28 PM, David Gravereaux wrote:

Harald,

Yes, E4W is orphaned.  I don't have the focus.  I see the forest, but
not the trees.  Add the injector.dll to the spawned process with this.
All security issues are fixed using the Detours API.  The trampoline functions will be similar to the breakpoints (ConsoleDebugger::On*)

https://github.com/microsoft/Detours/wiki/DetourCreateProcessWithDlls

Maybe, just maybe only replace CreateProcess with
DetourCreateProcessWithDlls keeping DEBUG_PROCESS and not load any
trampolines and keep doing things with the system debugger as is for the
least modifying?

https://github.com/davygrvy/expect4win/blob/47859c05d05c6c624517dac1552316d448e864b4/win/expWinConsoleDebugger.cpp#L347

I also see that Jeff Hobbs turned on [interact]. I was scared. I
wonder if it works?
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From Newsgroup: comp.lang.tcl

Am 14.08.2025 um 02:35 schrieb David Gravereaux:

On 8/13/2025 4:28 PM, David Gravereaux wrote:

Harald,

Yes, E4W is orphaned.  I don't have the focus.  I see the forest, but
not the trees.  Add the injector.dll to the spawned process with this.
All security issues are fixed using the Detours API.  The trampoline
functions will be similar to the breakpoints (ConsoleDebugger::On*)

https://github.com/microsoft/Detours/wiki/DetourCreateProcessWithDlls

Maybe, just maybe only replace CreateProcess with DetourCreateProcessWithDlls keeping DEBUG_PROCESS and not load any trampolines and keep doing things with the system debugger as is for the least modifying?

https://github.com/davygrvy/expect4win/ blob/47859c05d05c6c624517dac1552316d448e864b4/win/ expWinConsoleDebugger.cpp#L347

I also see that Jeff Hobbs turned on [interact].  I was scared.  I
wonder if it works?

David,
thanks for all your information and work.
My compassion for your health situation.
I will personally not invest in Expect for Windows.
No maintainer, no action...
Thanks for all,
Harald
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From Newsgroup: comp.lang.tcl

On 8/14/2025 2:30 AM, Harald Oehlmann wrote:

I will personally not invest in Expect for Windows.

I might get a successful build in few days. Watch this space.
Debuggers work different on WIN64, I'm fighting that now.

Everything is different with GetThreadContext() and https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/winnt/ns-winnt-context
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