From Newsgroup: comp.misc

Killing X11 by Ted Unangst
==========================

X11 is supposed to be dead, but people keep using it because
apparently it still works. I have a plan to fix this so everyone does
what I want.

It all starts with a popular toolkit library like QTK. Even if people
don't upgrade X11, if they run a browser, they're on the upgrade
treadmill.

I change the internal pixel representation from RGB to BGR and adjust
the Wayland backend, but not the X11 backend because that's community supported.

I am confused when bug reports start coming in. Weird colors on X11?
Doesn't surprise me, there's tons of weirdness in that pile of jank.
Works for me in Wayland, you should try it.

Somebody will figure it out and submit a patch. I'm sorry, but we
have a release scheduled and we can't merge anything that may cause
further regressions, even though it only changes x11.c. Are we sure
this is even the correct fix? Have you tested with a Voodoo2 card?

This is the internet, so after sufficient slow walking, someone is
bound to say something unpleasant on the tracker. I write a blog post
outlining how not only is X11 support a burden on developers, it's
literally unsafe. Just look at these death threats.

I commit the fix with a lengthy commit message fanfic story about
frogs and scorpions and the Jem'Hadar.

I revert the BGR change back to RGB pixels. I write another blog post expressing regret about the lack of progress and alluding to all the
cool things that would have been possible, if only we weren't held
back by legacy platform support. No need for details, people will get
the message.

Users start reporting bugs on X11. Weird colors on X11? Again? How
many times do we need to fix this crap? We need to get people off of
X11, whatever it takes.

I devise a plan to kill X11.

From: <https://flak.tedunangst.com/post/killing-X11>
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From Newsgroup: comp.misc

On Sun, 22 Jun 2025 14:39:53 -0000 (UTC), Ben Collver wrote:

It all starts with a popular toolkit library like QTK. Even if people
don't upgrade X11, if they run a browser, they're on the upgrade
treadmill.

If you try to pull an XFree86, someone will pull an Xorg on you.

Yes, ironic that my fork example comes from the very history of X11
itself, isn’t it?
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From Newsgroup: comp.misc

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jun 2025 14:39:53 -0000 (UTC), Ben Collver wrote:

It all starts with a popular toolkit library like QTK. Even if people
don't upgrade X11, if they run a browser, they're on the upgrade
treadmill.

If you try to pull an XFree86, someone will pull an Xorg on you.

They already did: https://www.theregister.com/2025/06/20/new_version_of_xorg_x11/

although unclear how much takeup this will get.

Partly it's a response to the Wayland developers refrain of "Wayland is the
One True Way; we're not sorry that all the basic stuff you relied on with
X11 doesn't work; we don't care". Meanwhile, with tools for doing Real
Work:

https://www.kicad.org/blog/2025/06/KiCad-and-Wayland-Support/

Theo
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From Newsgroup: comp.misc

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jun 2025 14:39:53 -0000 (UTC), Ben Collver wrote:

It all starts with a popular toolkit library like QTK. Even if people
don't upgrade X11, if they run a browser, they're on the upgrade
treadmill.

If you try to pull an XFree86, someone will pull an Xorg on you.

They already did: https://www.theregister.com/2025/06/20/new_version_of_xorg_x11/

although unclear how much takeup this will get.

Partly it's a response to the Wayland developers refrain of "Wayland is the One True Way; we're not sorry that all the basic stuff you relied on with
X11 doesn't work; we don't care". Meanwhile, with tools for doing Real
Work:

https://www.kicad.org/blog/2025/06/KiCad-and-Wayland-Support/

Given the fact that one of that crew now works for Microsoft, this is
fully in keeping with the Microsoft way:

We will give you something that is incompatible with what you had,
and which only provides 10% of the features you previously had, and
you *WILL* love it.

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From Newsgroup: comp.misc

On 22.06.2025 14:39 Uhr Ben Collver wrote:

X11 is supposed to be dead, but people keep using it because
apparently it still works. I have a plan to fix this so everyone does
what I want.

People still use it because Wayland lacks certain functionality like
network transparency (you can run X11 apps on another networked
machine). Certain desktop environments/windows mangers don't support
Wayland.

The Wayland people seems to ignore that, so X11 users will stay.
--
kind regards
Marco

Send spam to 1750595993muell@stinkedores.dorfdsl.de

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From Newsgroup: comp.misc

On Sun, 22 Jun 2025 14:39:53 -0000 (UTC), Ben Collver wrote:

Killing X11 by Ted Unangst
==========================

Meh. It's more strange that there always was only one
display server for a lot of free operating systems out there.
But there are thousands of Linux distributions...
Basically when almost everyone invests into just one system
that's what you get.
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From Newsgroup: comp.misc

On 23 Jun 2025 12:56:01 +0100 (BST), Theo wrote:

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jun 2025 14:39:53 -0000 (UTC), Ben Collver wrote:

It all starts with a popular toolkit library like QTK. Even if people
don't upgrade X11, if they run a browser, they're on the upgrade
treadmill.

If you try to pull an XFree86, someone will pull an Xorg on you.

They already did: https://www.theregister.com/2025/06/20/new_version_of_xorg_x11/

although unclear how much takeup this will get.

Obviously, if X11 really is still that much loved, it should get a lot of takeup.

If it doesn’t ... then I guess that proves the Wayland developers’ point, doesn’t it?
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.misc

On Mon, 23 Jun 2025 22:01:55 -0000 (UTC), George Musk wrote:

Meh. It's more strange that there always was only one display server for
a lot of free operating systems out there.

Actually there are several implementations of the Wayland protocol. And remember that the current Xorg is a fork of XFree86, which in turn was
derived from the original MIT X11 reference code.

And there are other projects, like Ubuntu was working on something called “Mir” before giving up and switching to Wayland.

But there are thousands of Linux distributions...
Basically when almost everyone invests into just one system that's what
you get.

It’s Open Source, so you are free to come up with a new one. Remember Wayland has been around for a very long time before rising to prominence, because of the immense inertia of all that X11 baggage to overcome. Do you have the patience to do the same?
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.misc

On Mon, 23 Jun 2025 22:08:51 +0200, Marco Moock wrote:

People still use it because Wayland lacks certain functionality like
network transparency (you can run X11 apps on another networked
machine).

But if you lose the network connection, all those remote apps die.

Better to use something like VNC or RDP, where the apps don’t even know
the user is at the other end of a network connection. That way you can disconnect and reconnect from the same or different machine, and continue using the desktop session without interruption.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.misc

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

On Mon, 23 Jun 2025 22:08:51 +0200, Marco Moock wrote:

People still use it because Wayland lacks certain functionality like
network transparency (you can run X11 apps on another networked
machine).

But if you lose the network connection, all those remote apps die.

Actually their windows just don't update again until the network
connection returns, after which it's business as usual. Same as
with the alternatives.
--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#
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From Newsgroup: comp.misc

Marco Moock wrote:

Ben Collver quoted tedu:

X11 is supposed to be dead, but people keep using it because
apparently it still works. I have a plan to fix this so everyone does
what I want.

People still use it because Wayland lacks certain functionality like
network transparency (you can run X11 apps on another networked
machine). Certain desktop environments/windows mangers don't support
Wayland.

Sure, most of us have used XDMCP, SSH tunnelling to start full X11
sessions, or the DISPLAY environment to run xeyes on a colleague's workstation, I never tried LBX.

The Wayland people seems to ignore that, so X11 users will stay.

Does anyone genuinely use X11 remotely? Remote sessions for Wayland can
be done with VNC/NX/RDP/SPICE/QXL surely?
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.misc

On Tue, 24 Jun 2025 09:00:30 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

Remote sessions for Wayland can be done with VNC/NX/RDP/SPICE/QXL
surely?

You can have virtual Wayland servers, just as you can have virtual X11 servers.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.misc

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

On Mon, 23 Jun 2025 22:08:51 +0200, Marco Moock wrote:

People still use it because Wayland lacks certain functionality like network transparency (you can run X11 apps on another networked
machine).

But if you lose the network connection, all those remote apps die.

Better to use something like VNC or RDP, where the apps don’t even know the user is at the other end of a network connection. That way you can disconnect and reconnect from the same or different machine, and continue using the desktop session without interruption.

X2go does that for X. It works much better than VNC/RDP because each window
is a window on your local machine, rather than everything being constrained
to a rectangular window.

Theo
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From Newsgroup: comp.misc

On Tue, 24 Jun 2025 12:56:23 +0100, Theo wrote:

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

On Mon, 23 Jun 2025 22:08:51 +0200, Marco Moock wrote:

People still use it because Wayland lacks certain functionality like
network transparency (you can run X11 apps on another networked
machine).

But if you lose the network connection, all those remote apps die.

Better to use something like VNC or RDP, where the apps don’t even know
the user is at the other end of a network connection. That way you can
disconnect and reconnect from the same or different machine, and
continue using the desktop session without interruption.

X2go does that for X. It works much better than VNC/RDP because each
window is a window on your local machine, rather than everything being constrained to a rectangular window.

The project is abandones as of last month.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
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From Newsgroup: comp.misc

On Tue, 24 Jun 2025 09:00:30 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

Does anyone genuinely use X11 remotely?

If not daily, then several times per week.

Various use cases:
1) Running a remote browser on a headless server when you're trying to poke at configuration webservice that's only listening on localhost.
2) SSH tunneling a browser on a remote server to poke at something on the non-routable network
3) Presenting apps at work from home desktop or vice-versa depending on what I'm
doing.
4) Various for-fun nonsense involving old computers, which is only tangentially relevant here.

--
jason
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From Newsgroup: comp.misc

Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jun 2025 12:56:23 +0100, Theo wrote:

X2go does that for X. It works much better than VNC/RDP because each window is a window on your local machine, rather than everything being constrained to a rectangular window.

The project is abandones as of last month.

Do you have a cite? Last activity I can see is one of the maintainers
last month upgraded the mailing list system to Mailman 3, which does not
sounds like an abandoned project.

Most recent git commits were in the branch of one of the developers
yesterday: https://gitlab.x2go.org/x2go/client/x2goclient/-/commits/personal%2Foshneyder%2Ffix-terminating-sess-from-sessdlg?ref_type=heads

Theo
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From Newsgroup: comp.misc

On Tue, 24 Jun 2025 21:24:45 +0100, Theo wrote:

Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jun 2025 12:56:23 +0100, Theo wrote:

X2go does that for X. It works much better than VNC/RDP because each
window is a window on your local machine, rather than everything
being constrained to a rectangular window.

The project is abandones as of last month.

Do you have a cite? Last activity I can see is one of the maintainers
last month upgraded the mailing list system to Mailman 3, which does not sounds like an abandoned project.

Most recent git commits were in the branch of one of the developers yesterday:
https://gitlab.x2go.org/x2go/client/x2goclient/-/commits/

personal%2Foshneyder%2Ffix-terminating-sess-from-sessdlg?ref_type=heads

I am very glad to hear it.

I misunderstood a statement on an organisation's website, that said THEY
were ceasing support. I thought they were the originators.

Very glad you mentioned that, as I was looking into using it.

Can you clarify? I see a lot about the client, but little about the server (which I understand is small). Is it bundled with the client?
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
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From Newsgroup: comp.misc

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> writes:

Marco Moock wrote:

Ben Collver quoted tedu:

X11 is supposed to be dead, but people keep using it because
apparently it still works. I have a plan to fix this so everyone does
what I want.

People still use it because Wayland lacks certain functionality like
network transparency (you can run X11 apps on another networked
machine). Certain desktop environments/windows mangers don't support
Wayland.

Sure, most of us have used XDMCP, SSH tunnelling to start full X11
sessions, or the DISPLAY environment to run xeyes on a colleague's workstation, I never tried LBX.

The Wayland people seems to ignore that, so X11 users will stay.

Does anyone genuinely use X11 remotely?

Yes, daily, for single applications. Usually over my house ethernet but sometimes over the Internet (although it perhaps should be noted, within
a single ISP).

If I need a full desktop session I usually use remote desktop (or turn
my chair round to the other side of the office l-) I gather that can
also work with Wayland but I’ve not yet needed to try it.
--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
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From Newsgroup: comp.misc

On Tue, 24 Jun 2025 16:29:57 -0000 (UTC), Jason Howe wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jun 2025 09:00:30 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

Does anyone genuinely use X11 remotely?

If not daily, then several times per week.

Various use cases:
1) Running a remote browser on a headless server when you're trying to
poke at configuration webservice that's only listening on localhost.
2) SSH tunneling a browser on a remote server to poke at something on
the non-routable network

Do these two via an SSH tunnel. Because passing HTTP/HTTPS through the SSH connection would be quicker than passing across entire GUI screens.

3) Presenting apps at work from home desktop or
vice-versa depending on what I'm doing.

Something like VNC or RDP would be more convenient for this purpose.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.misc

Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote:

Very glad you mentioned that, as I was looking into using it.

Can you clarify? I see a lot about the client, but little about the server (which I understand is small). Is it bundled with the client?

No, it's a separate package. On an Ubuntu server:

$ sudo apt install x2goserver

on a client:

$ sudo apt install x2goclient
$ x2goclient

which pops up a GUI. Create a new connection for 'server.example.com',
leave everything else the same. It connects via SSH.

You probably want to fiddle with the 'Session type' options as by default it starts a new KDE desktop for me. Usually I switch that to 'Single
application' and 'Terminal' so I get a terminal window and can then launch
new windows from there. eg if I run 'xclock' I get the clock in a new
window that operates like all my local windows.

It's a bit crashy, but often when it crashes you can restart the connection, hit 'resume' and all your windows reappear. That can also happen if your network drops, you need to reconnect to get them back. It's really handy
for laptops where you can leave something running on the server, suspend the laptop, and then come back later.

(hmm, I wonder if it supports mosh which reconnects seamlessly for SSH...)

Theo
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From Newsgroup: comp.misc

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote at 11:56 this Tuesday (GMT):

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

On Mon, 23 Jun 2025 22:08:51 +0200, Marco Moock wrote:

People still use it because Wayland lacks certain functionality like
network transparency (you can run X11 apps on another networked
machine).

But if you lose the network connection, all those remote apps die.

Better to use something like VNC or RDP, where the apps don’t even know >> the user is at the other end of a network connection. That way you can
disconnect and reconnect from the same or different machine, and continue >> using the desktop session without interruption.

X2go does that for X. It works much better than VNC/RDP because each window is a window on your local machine, rather than everything being constrained to a rectangular window.

Theo

Very cool program, thanks!
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom
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