On 7/27/2025 1:51 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-07-27 09:35, Tom Elam wrote:
[while shifting from stalking to a brag attempt]
I'm flying up to Luddington Michigan on Wednesday to stay with some
friends in their backwoods cabin...
Because you invited me, it wouldn't now be stalking, would it?
But:
Who's paying for the trip?
:-)
I am paying. N5168V belongs to my flying club. It's $130/hour on the
Hobbs meter. That is all inclusive, including fuel. It will be about 5.5 hours up and back, so something like $715. Maybe a little more or less depending on ATC and winds. Monthly dues are $165 whether you fly or not. ...
This is small blip on our monthly income.
On 7/28/25 11:43, Tom Elam wrote:
On 7/27/2025 1:51 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-07-27 09:35, Tom Elam wrote:
[while shifting from stalking to a brag attempt]
I'm flying up to Luddington Michigan on Wednesday to stay with some
friends in their backwoods cabin...
Because you invited me, it wouldn't now be stalking, would it?
But:
Who's paying for the trip?
:-)
I am paying. N5168V belongs to my flying club. It's $130/hour on the
Hobbs meter. That is all inclusive, including fuel. It will be about
5.5 hours up and back, so something like $715. Maybe a little more or
less depending on ATC and winds. Monthly dues are $165 whether you fly
or not. ...
This is small blip on our monthly income.
One would certainly hope so, given that its on an annual cost of at
least $2695 with this one flight, with ~3/4s of it being the fixed membership fees.
In the meantime, for half as much on selected days, one can presently
fly two passengers, round trip US to/from Norway in Coach.
Or for those for whom its a 'small blip', figure roughly this much for
one pax RT if electing for higher-than-Coach seating. Similarly, when a suitably good deal is found, add a two week cruise at just $200/pp-day.
-hh
On 2025-07-31 12:50, -hh wrote:
On 7/28/25 11:43, Tom Elam wrote:
On 7/27/2025 1:51 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-07-27 09:35, Tom Elam wrote:
[while shifting from stalking to a brag attempt]
I'm flying up to Luddington Michigan on Wednesday to stay with some >>>>> friends in their backwoods cabin...
Because you invited me, it wouldn't now be stalking, would it?
But:
Who's paying for the trip?
:-)
I am paying. N5168V belongs to my flying club. It's $130/hour on the
Hobbs meter. That is all inclusive, including fuel. It will be about
5.5 hours up and back, so something like $715. Maybe a little more or
less depending on ATC and winds. Monthly dues are $165 whether you
fly or not. ...
This is small blip on our monthly income.
One would certainly hope so, given that its on an annual cost of at
least $2695 with this one flight, with ~3/4s of it being the fixed
membership fees.
In the meantime, for half as much on selected days, one can presently
fly two passengers, round trip US to/from Norway in Coach.
Or for those for whom its a 'small blip', figure roughly this much for
one pax RT if electing for higher-than-Coach seating. Similarly, when
a suitably good deal is found, add a two week cruise at just $200/pp-day.
-hh
And always remember:
Tommie declared that flying is boring without "purpose".
:-)
...
I'm flying up to Luddington Michigan on Wednesday to stay with some
friends in their backwoods cabin. Please please feel free to "stalk" me
by pulling up N5168V on FlightAware. You can even track us real time. We plan to depart about 10 am EDT and be airborne for about 2 hours.
https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N5168V
On 7/27/25 12:35, Tom Elam tried to brag:
...
I'm flying up to Luddington Michigan on Wednesday to stay with some
friends in their backwoods cabin. Please please feel free to "stalk"
me by pulling up N5168V on FlightAware. You can even track us real
time. We plan to depart about 10 am EDT and be airborne for about 2
hours.
https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N5168V
Didn't bother with this earlier, but for Tommy's return, looks like he's encountering delay (TBD if its wildfire smoke or destination weather):Yes, but on the plus side it means he can't be here and telling us all
Departing for the ~300 mile journey at 11:40am...figure 11AM if not
having to prep the Cessna, and Google Maps says 4:40 driving time, so
ETA to arrive back in Carmel IN would have been 15:40hrs (+stops).
Figure a generous hour break for lunch, ETA to arrive home is roughly
right about now (16:45).
But what does flight aware show for his actual?
Stuck on the ground in Kalamazoo (was scheduled 03:16PM EDT):
Takeoff 04:43PM EDT (but slipping by the minute)
Similarly,
Landing: was Scheduled 4:38m ... now 6:05pm (& slipping).
On 7/27/25 12:35, Tom Elam tried to brag:
...
I'm flying up to Luddington Michigan on Wednesday to stay with some
friends in their backwoods cabin. Please please feel free to "stalk"
me by pulling up N5168V on FlightAware. You can even track us real
time. We plan to depart about 10 am EDT and be airborne for about 2
hours.
https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N5168V
Didn't bother with this earlier, but for Tommy's return, looks like he's encountering delay (TBD if its wildfire smoke or destination weather):
Departing for the ~300 mile journey at 11:40am...figure 11AM if not
having to prep the Cessna, and Google Maps says 4:40 driving time, so
ETA to arrive back in Carmel IN would have been 15:40hrs (+stops).
Figure a generous hour break for lunch, ETA to arrive home is roughly
right about now (16:45).
But what does flight aware show for his actual?
Stuck on the ground in Kalamazoo (was scheduled 03:16PM EDT):
Takeoff 04:43PM EDT (but slipping by the minute)
Similarly,
Landing: was Scheduled 4:38m ... now 6:05pm (& slipping).
-hh
O
On 2025-08-04 13:46, -hh wrote:
On 7/27/25 12:35, Tom Elam tried to brag:Yes, but on the plus side it means he can't be here and telling us all
...
I'm flying up to Luddington Michigan on Wednesday to stay with some
friends in their backwoods cabin. Please please feel free to "stalk"
me by pulling up N5168V on FlightAware. You can even track us real
time. We plan to depart about 10 am EDT and be airborne for about 2
hours.
https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N5168V
Didn't bother with this earlier, but for Tommy's return, looks like
he's encountering delay (TBD if its wildfire smoke or destination
weather):
Departing for the ~300 mile journey at 11:40am...figure 11AM if not
having to prep the Cessna, and Google Maps says 4:40 driving time, so
ETA to arrive back in Carmel IN would have been 15:40hrs (+stops).
Figure a generous hour break for lunch, ETA to arrive home is roughly
right about now (16:45).
But what does flight aware show for his actual?
Stuck on the ground in Kalamazoo (was scheduled 03:16PM EDT):
Takeoff 04:43PM EDT (but slipping by the minute)
Similarly,
Landing: was Scheduled 4:38m ... now 6:05pm (& slipping).
about how wonderful flying a light aircraft is!
On 8/4/2025 4:46 PM, -hh wrote:
On 7/27/25 12:35, Tom Elam tried to brag:
...
I'm flying up to Luddington Michigan on Wednesday to stay with some
friends in their backwoods cabin. Please please feel free to "stalk"
me by pulling up N5168V on FlightAware. You can even track us real
time. We plan to depart about 10 am EDT and be airborne for about 2
hours.
https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N5168V
Didn't bother with this earlier, but for Tommy's return, looks like
he's encountering delay (TBD if its wildfire smoke or destination
weather):
Departing for the ~300 mile journey at 11:40am...figure 11AM if not
having to prep the Cessna, and Google Maps says 4:40 driving time, so
ETA to arrive back in Carmel IN would have been 15:40hrs (+stops).
Figure a generous hour break for lunch, ETA to arrive home is roughly
right about now (16:45).
But what does flight aware show for his actual?
Stuck on the ground in Kalamazoo (was scheduled 03:16PM EDT):
Takeoff 04:43PM EDT (but slipping by the minute)
Similarly,
Landing: was Scheduled 4:38m ... now 6:05pm (& slipping).
-hh
O
LOL! You just made the case for flying yourself somewhere. Thanks!
Yesterday we had a nice breakfast at the cabin and stopped at a local
market to shop for Michigan local delicacies on the way to the airport. Among others, we bought some of the last sweet cherry crop. We were not "delayed".
I fueled up and filed IFR (smoke from Canadian fires limited flight visibility) to Kalamazoo. At cruise altitude there was no visible
horizon, but not an issue. Got to log some IFR time, a plus. Due to the smoke I flew the GPS 17 approach to AZO.
We stopped there for a few hours to tour the Air Zoo museum (https:// www.airzoo.org/) that is on the airport. We parked on the ramp at the
museum (http://tiny.cc/hesq001) Very enjoyable place, try it some time.
This stop was planned in July before we even left home. No "delay" here either.
FYI the "scheduled" time in this case is what I filed. That is only an estimate. You can pick up an IFR clearance 30 minutes before and up to 2 hours after the filed time.
I had filed IFR to Eagle Creek but the smoke was not a factor at EYE and
did the visual to runway 3. Added some fuel, put the airplane away, and bought dinner on the way home. We arrived on time.
Total time yesterday on the Hobbs was 3.1 hours, and that includes taxi
and ground time at Kalamazoo and waiting in line to takeoff. Going up it
was 2.5 hours on the Hobbs, and that was with some headwinds.
We had a very enjoyable smooth-air trip both ways, albeit with slight headwinds.
The days up there were incredible. This cabin borders Forest Service
land. We hiked, we bird-watched, we drove historic Michigan route 22,
toured Sleeping Bear, shopped small local stores, had some incredible
meals at local eateries, paddled kayaks on a lake next to the cabin, and attended the graduation concert at Interlochen Center for the Arts (https://www.interlochen.org/) summer camp.
Mapquest shows 309 miles our home to Ludington, 4 hours 49 minutes. With stops and traffic call it 6 hours. Total time door-to-door in the
airplane was about 4 hours. EYE-LDM distance is 285 miles, not very different.
Return via Kalamazoo is 362 miles 5 hours 30 minutes. Flying time was a little over 3 hours.
Did we save a lot of time. Not really. Is driving as enjoyable. Not for
us. We did not see another aircraft unless you count when we were on the ground or via ADSB on the GPS.
I just looked at airline flights. One option found for next week is IND-
TVC (Traverse City) via Delta at only 3 scheduled hours and $326 per
person. By the time you add time from home to IND, airport waiting, and driving TVC to the cabin, it would be more like 6-7 hours total. The airplane rental was $702, so about the same as this Delta option. If you look at other options they are a bit less expensive but take more time.
BTW I have never lost a bag either.
You should not make assumptions about other people's plans.
On 2025-08-05 08:35, Tom Elam wrote:
On 8/4/2025 4:46 PM, -hh wrote:
On 7/27/25 12:35, Tom Elam tried to brag:
...
I'm flying up to Luddington Michigan on Wednesday to stay with some
friends in their backwoods cabin. Please please feel free to "stalk"
me by pulling up N5168V on FlightAware. You can even track us real
time. We plan to depart about 10 am EDT and be airborne for about 2
hours.
https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N5168V
Didn't bother with this earlier, but for Tommy's return, looks like
he's encountering delay (TBD if its wildfire smoke or destination
weather):
Departing for the ~300 mile journey at 11:40am...figure 11AM if not
having to prep the Cessna, and Google Maps says 4:40 driving time, so
ETA to arrive back in Carmel IN would have been 15:40hrs (+stops).
Figure a generous hour break for lunch, ETA to arrive home is roughly
right about now (16:45).
But what does flight aware show for his actual?
Stuck on the ground in Kalamazoo (was scheduled 03:16PM EDT):
Takeoff 04:43PM EDT (but slipping by the minute)
Similarly,
Landing: was Scheduled 4:38m ... now 6:05pm (& slipping).
-hh
O
LOL! You just made the case for flying yourself somewhere. Thanks!
Yesterday we had a nice breakfast at the cabin and stopped at a local
market to shop for Michigan local delicacies on the way to the
airport. Among others, we bought some of the last sweet cherry crop.
We were not "delayed".
I fueled up and filed IFR (smoke from Canadian fires limited flight
visibility) to Kalamazoo. At cruise altitude there was no visible
horizon, but not an issue. Got to log some IFR time, a plus. Due to
the smoke I flew the GPS 17 approach to AZO.
We stopped there for a few hours to tour the Air Zoo museum (https://
www.airzoo.org/) that is on the airport. We parked on the ramp at the
museum (http://tiny.cc/hesq001) Very enjoyable place, try it some
time.
This stop was planned in July before we even left home. No
"delay" here either.>>
FYI the "scheduled" time in this case is what I filed. That is only an
estimate. You can pick up an IFR clearance 30 minutes before and up to
2 hours after the filed time.
I had filed IFR to Eagle Creek but the smoke was not a factor at EYE
and did the visual to runway 3. Added some fuel, put the airplane
away, and bought dinner on the way home. We arrived on time.
Mapquest shows 309 miles our home to Ludington, 4 hours 49 minutes.
With stops and traffic call it 6 hours. Total time door-to-door in the
airplane was about 4 hours. EYE-LDM distance is 285 miles, not very
different.
Return via Kalamazoo is 362 miles 5 hours 30 minutes. Flying time was
a little over 3 hours.
Did we save a lot of time. Not really. Is driving as enjoyable. Not
for us. We did not see another aircraft unless you count when we were
on the ground or via ADSB on the GPS.
I just looked at airline flights. One option found for next week is
IND- TVC (Traverse City) via Delta at only 3 scheduled hours and $326
per person. By the time you add time from home to IND, airport
waiting, and driving TVC to the cabin, it would be more like 6-7 hours
total. The airplane rental was $702, so about the same as this Delta
option. If you look at other options they are a bit less expensive but
take more time. BTW I have never lost a bag either.
Tommy is whining merely because someone did a "Tommy" back at him.You should not make assumptions about other people's plans.
Why not?
You do it literally all the time.Precisely the point:
I am paying. N5168V belongs to my flying club. It's $130/hour on the
Hobbs meter. That is all inclusive, including fuel. It will be about
5.5 hours up and back, so something like $715. Maybe a little more or
less depending on ATC and winds. Monthly dues are $165 whether you fly
or not. ...
This is small blip on our monthly income.
One would certainly hope so, given that its on an annual cost of at
least $2695 with this one flight, with ~3/4s of it being the fixed membership fees.
In the meantime, for half as much on selected days, one can presently
fly two passengers, round trip US to/from Norway in Coach.
Or for those for whom its a 'small blip', figure roughly this much for
one pax RT if electing for higher-than-Coach seating. Similarly, when a suitably good deal is found, add a two week cruise at just $200/pp-
Meh, looked a little into it; not a bad little museum, but its still
just a little museum. For those where this is their thing, go beyond
the Air & Space museum in DC to the Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center, which
has supplemented the Paul E Garber restoration facility:
On 2025-08-05 08:35, Tom Elam wrote:
On 8/4/2025 4:46 PM, -hh wrote:
On 7/27/25 12:35, Tom Elam tried to brag:
...
I'm flying up to Luddington Michigan on Wednesday to stay with some
friends in their backwoods cabin. Please please feel free to "stalk"
me by pulling up N5168V on FlightAware. You can even track us real
time. We plan to depart about 10 am EDT and be airborne for about 2
hours.
https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N5168V
Didn't bother with this earlier, but for Tommy's return, looks like
he's encountering delay (TBD if its wildfire smoke or destination
weather):
Departing for the ~300 mile journey at 11:40am...figure 11AM if not
having to prep the Cessna, and Google Maps says 4:40 driving time, so
ETA to arrive back in Carmel IN would have been 15:40hrs (+stops).
Figure a generous hour break for lunch, ETA to arrive home is roughly
right about now (16:45).
But what does flight aware show for his actual?
Stuck on the ground in Kalamazoo (was scheduled 03:16PM EDT):
Takeoff 04:43PM EDT (but slipping by the minute)
Similarly,
Landing: was Scheduled 4:38m ... now 6:05pm (& slipping).
-hh
O
LOL! You just made the case for flying yourself somewhere. Thanks!
Yesterday we had a nice breakfast at the cabin and stopped at a local
market to shop for Michigan local delicacies on the way to the
airport. Among others, we bought some of the last sweet cherry crop.
We were not "delayed".
I fueled up and filed IFR (smoke from Canadian fires limited flight
visibility) to Kalamazoo. At cruise altitude there was no visible
horizon, but not an issue. Got to log some IFR time, a plus. Due to
the smoke I flew the GPS 17 approach to AZO.
We stopped there for a few hours to tour the Air Zoo museum (https://
www.airzoo.org/) that is on the airport. We parked on the ramp at the
museum (http://tiny.cc/hesq001) Very enjoyable place, try it some
time. This stop was planned in July before we even left home. No
"delay" here either.
FYI the "scheduled" time in this case is what I filed. That is only an
estimate. You can pick up an IFR clearance 30 minutes before and up to
2 hours after the filed time.
I had filed IFR to Eagle Creek but the smoke was not a factor at EYE
and did the visual to runway 3. Added some fuel, put the airplane
away, and bought dinner on the way home. We arrived on time.
Total time yesterday on the Hobbs was 3.1 hours, and that includes
taxi and ground time at Kalamazoo and waiting in line to takeoff.
Going up it was 2.5 hours on the Hobbs, and that was with some headwinds.
We had a very enjoyable smooth-air trip both ways, albeit with slight
headwinds.
The days up there were incredible. This cabin borders Forest Service
land. We hiked, we bird-watched, we drove historic Michigan route 22,
toured Sleeping Bear, shopped small local stores, had some incredible
meals at local eateries, paddled kayaks on a lake next to the cabin,
and attended the graduation concert at Interlochen Center for the Arts
(https://www.interlochen.org/) summer camp.
Mapquest shows 309 miles our home to Ludington, 4 hours 49 minutes.
With stops and traffic call it 6 hours. Total time door-to-door in the
airplane was about 4 hours. EYE-LDM distance is 285 miles, not very
different.
Return via Kalamazoo is 362 miles 5 hours 30 minutes. Flying time was
a little over 3 hours.
Did we save a lot of time. Not really. Is driving as enjoyable. Not
for us. We did not see another aircraft unless you count when we were
on the ground or via ADSB on the GPS.
I just looked at airline flights. One option found for next week is
IND- TVC (Traverse City) via Delta at only 3 scheduled hours and $326
per person. By the time you add time from home to IND, airport
waiting, and driving TVC to the cabin, it would be more like 6-7 hours
total. The airplane rental was $702, so about the same as this Delta
option. If you look at other options they are a bit less expensive but
take more time. BTW I have never lost a bag either.
You should not make assumptions about other people's plans.
Why not?
You do it literally all the time.
And 600 miles RT in a 40+mpg Honda hybrid would be all of $50:
that's a 90% savings over renting the Cessna.
On 8/5/2025 2:54 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-08-05 08:35, Tom Elam wrote:
On 8/4/2025 4:46 PM, -hh wrote:
On 7/27/25 12:35, Tom Elam tried to brag:
...
I'm flying up to Luddington Michigan on Wednesday to stay with some >>>>> friends in their backwoods cabin. Please please feel free to
"stalk" me by pulling up N5168V on FlightAware. You can even track
us real time. We plan to depart about 10 am EDT and be airborne for >>>>> about 2 hours.
https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N5168V
Didn't bother with this earlier, but for Tommy's return, looks like
he's encountering delay (TBD if its wildfire smoke or destination
weather):
Departing for the ~300 mile journey at 11:40am...figure 11AM if not
having to prep the Cessna, and Google Maps says 4:40 driving time,
so ETA to arrive back in Carmel IN would have been 15:40hrs
(+stops). Figure a generous hour break for lunch, ETA to arrive home
is roughly right about now (16:45).
But what does flight aware show for his actual?
Stuck on the ground in Kalamazoo (was scheduled 03:16PM EDT):
Takeoff 04:43PM EDT (but slipping by the minute)
Similarly,
Landing: was Scheduled 4:38m ... now 6:05pm (& slipping).
-hh
O
LOL! You just made the case for flying yourself somewhere. Thanks!
Yesterday we had a nice breakfast at the cabin and stopped at a local
market to shop for Michigan local delicacies on the way to the
airport. Among others, we bought some of the last sweet cherry crop.
We were not "delayed".
I fueled up and filed IFR (smoke from Canadian fires limited flight
visibility) to Kalamazoo. At cruise altitude there was no visible
horizon, but not an issue. Got to log some IFR time, a plus. Due to
the smoke I flew the GPS 17 approach to AZO.
We stopped there for a few hours to tour the Air Zoo museum (https://
www.airzoo.org/) that is on the airport. We parked on the ramp at the
museum (http://tiny.cc/hesq001) Very enjoyable place, try it some
time. This stop was planned in July before we even left home. No
"delay" here either.
FYI the "scheduled" time in this case is what I filed. That is only
an estimate. You can pick up an IFR clearance 30 minutes before and
up to 2 hours after the filed time.
I had filed IFR to Eagle Creek but the smoke was not a factor at EYE
and did the visual to runway 3. Added some fuel, put the airplane
away, and bought dinner on the way home. We arrived on time.
Total time yesterday on the Hobbs was 3.1 hours, and that includes
taxi and ground time at Kalamazoo and waiting in line to takeoff.
Going up it was 2.5 hours on the Hobbs, and that was with some
headwinds.
We had a very enjoyable smooth-air trip both ways, albeit with slight
headwinds.
The days up there were incredible. This cabin borders Forest Service
land. We hiked, we bird-watched, we drove historic Michigan route 22,
toured Sleeping Bear, shopped small local stores, had some incredible
meals at local eateries, paddled kayaks on a lake next to the cabin,
and attended the graduation concert at Interlochen Center for the
Arts (https://www.interlochen.org/) summer camp.
Mapquest shows 309 miles our home to Ludington, 4 hours 49 minutes.
With stops and traffic call it 6 hours. Total time door-to-door in
the airplane was about 4 hours. EYE-LDM distance is 285 miles, not
very different.
Return via Kalamazoo is 362 miles 5 hours 30 minutes. Flying time was
a little over 3 hours.
Did we save a lot of time. Not really. Is driving as enjoyable. Not
for us. We did not see another aircraft unless you count when we were
on the ground or via ADSB on the GPS.
I just looked at airline flights. One option found for next week is
IND- TVC (Traverse City) via Delta at only 3 scheduled hours and $326
per person. By the time you add time from home to IND, airport
waiting, and driving TVC to the cabin, it would be more like 6-7
hours total. The airplane rental was $702, so about the same as this
Delta option. If you look at other options they are a bit less
expensive but take more time. BTW I have never lost a bag either.
You should not make assumptions about other people's plans.
Why not?
You do it literally all the time.
So you not racing this year was your plan? Interesting
And 600 miles RT in a 40+mpg Honda hybrid would be all of $50:
that's a 90% savings over renting the Cessna.
But Tommy just said there was "No 'delay'"...so why this backpedaling?
On 7/31/2025 3:50 PM, -hh wrote:
I am paying. N5168V belongs to my flying club. It's $130/hour on the
Hobbs meter. That is all inclusive, including fuel. It will be about
5.5 hours up and back, so something like $715. Maybe a little more or
less depending on ATC and winds. Monthly dues are $165 whether you
fly or not. ...
This is small blip on our monthly income.
One would certainly hope so, given that its on an annual cost of at
least $2695 with this one flight, with ~3/4s of it being the fixed
membership fees.
In the meantime, for half as much on selected days, one can presently
fly two passengers, round trip US to/from Norway in Coach.
Or for those for whom its a 'small blip', figure roughly this much for
one pax RT if electing for higher-than-Coach seating. Similarly, when
a suitably good deal is found, add a two week cruise at just $200/pp-
We fly more than one trip per year in club aircraft. You pro-rated the
dues over 5.5 hours. Bad math.
And, you ignore the fact that I consider it money well spent for
the enjoyment of flying. You seem to believe that everyone should
look at the world through your lenses.
We traveled all we wanted to this year and are still contributing to savings. Two week cruise, two weeks Beaver Creek skiing, trips to see family, 2 weeks Italy/Croatia, upcoming Rocky Mountaineer excursion and
a week in NAPA with family.
Travel is not constrained by finances and we can choose how we get there. That includes paying for flying ourselves in a Cessna.Oh, so you chose to take the Cessna to Italy? /s
And, BTW, we just traded the tired 10 year old CRV for a new Outback
with all the bells and whistles. Wrote a check for the difference.
That we did not make the time proposed time only reflects that
we found other things to do. Had we found more I would have
just changed the proposed time.
And 600 miles RT in a 40+mpg Honda hybrid would be all of $50:
that's a 90% savings over renting the Cessna.
And worth the difference to me. Stop whining.
And 600 miles RT in a 40+mpg Honda hybrid would be all of $50:
that's a 90% savings over renting the Cessna.
Second reply, missed this crappy thing you wrote.
Only you would compare the flying time cost that includes fuel,
maintenance and depreciation to the marginal fuel cost for a
hybrid car.
Come on, you know that's not realistic. The 2025 IRS mileage
rate is $0.70. Make that $0.65 for my hybrid. On the same basis
as the airplane that is $422 if driving. That is not a 90%
difference, not even 50%.
As for flexibility, the airplane is the same as driving.
But Tommy just said there was "No 'delay'"...so why this
backpedaling?
Third reply
You simply do not understand IFR flight plans.
I get up in the morning, planning to drive somewhere, leaving
at 9:00. At 8:50 I see some emails demanding immediate replies,
and don't get away until 9:20. Is that backpedaling?
So despite your claim now of more than 1/yr, you've not delimited it,
such as in your below travel brag attempt, so there's no evidence to
rate the dues over more trips. In any event, even if its two or three
such trips, the car still works out to be a good deal cheaper.
And, you ignore the fact that I consider it money well spent for the
enjoyment of flying. You seem to believe that everyone should look at
the world through your lenses.
Nope, you're who said its "$130/hour", plus the monthly dues, because
you were trying to show that it wasn't any of your free hours from CAP.
We traveled all we wanted to this year and are still contributing to
savings. Two week cruise, two weeks Beaver Creek skiing, trips to see
family, 2 weeks Italy/Croatia, upcoming Rocky Mountaineer excursion
and a week in NAPA with family.
So you did finally take my advice from years ago and step it up; better
late than never.
Travel is not constrained by finances and we can choose how we get
there. That includes paying for flying ourselves in a Cessna.
Oh, so you chose to take the Cessna to Italy? /s
And, BTW, we just traded the tired 10 year old CRV for a new Outback
with all the bells and whistles. Wrote a check for the difference.
The CRV which got mangled in that traffic circle fiasco?
In any event, your brag attempts need work, for a Subaru Outback isn't
an expensive ride: its MRSP is ~10% less than average new car cost of ~$50K today. And that's before noting that used prices are still high
for the net out of pocket.
Maybe next time, brag about dropping dime for a 2025 Cayman GT4.
{post 2 merge ... Tommy made five (5) individual responses!}
That we did not make the time proposed time only reflects that
we found other things to do. Had we found more I would have
just changed the proposed time.
Which would have been fine if you had simply admitted upfront that you
were delayed by choice because you could (travel mode flexibility):
you're never going to win an argument against the reality of the clock.
{post 3 merge ... Tommy made five (5) individual responses!}
And 600 miles RT in a 40+mpg Honda hybrid would be all of $50:
that's a 90% savings over renting the Cessna.
And worth the difference to me. Stop whining.
Because Tommy *never* criticizes the choices of others! /s
{post 4 merge ... Tommy made five (5) individual responses!}
And 600 miles RT in a 40+mpg Honda hybrid would be all of $50:
that's a 90% savings over renting the Cessna.
Second reply, missed this crappy thing you wrote.
(No he didn't; see #3, immediately above)
Only you would compare the flying time cost that includes fuel, maintenance and depreciation to the marginal fuel cost for a
hybrid car.
Come on, you know that's not realistic. The 2025 IRS mileage
rate is $0.70. Make that $0.65 for my hybrid. On the same basis
as the airplane that is $422 if driving. That is not a 90%
difference, not even 50%.
Different accounting for different reasons. The incremental mileage addition on a personal vehicle for an occasional trip just isn't that expensive compared to other personal use factors. For example, a dealership salesman looking at a 10 year old CRV trade-in isn't going to offer you $650 more if it has 97,000 miles instead of 98,000 miles. Likewise, retirees tend to drive less, so the expense of an oil change
may be zero because it was changed based on calendar, not mileage. Etc.
As for flexibility, the airplane is the same as driving.
Sorry, its not: there's fewer airports than roads, and movement is increasingly restricted with bad weather (wind/rain/snow/fog/etc).
{post 5 merge ... of Tommy's five (5) individual responses!}
But Tommy just said there was "No 'delay'"...so why this
backpedaling?
Third reply
You simply do not understand IFR flight plans.
Irrelevant.
I get up in the morning, planning to drive somewhere, leaving
at 9:00. At 8:50 I see some emails demanding immediate replies,
and don't get away until 9:20. Is that backpedaling?
Your planned departure was undoubtedly delayed. If you try to deny that your planned departure was delayed, then yes.
On 8/7/2025 7:40 AM, -hh wrote:
So despite your claim now of more than 1/yr, you've not delimited it,
such as in your below travel brag attempt, so there's no evidence to
rate the dues over more trips. In any event, even if its two or three
such trips, the car still works out to be a good deal cheaper.
You still don't get it. I know the car is cheaper. It's worth it to me
to fly myself.
What's that got to do with it?And, you ignore the fact that I consider it money well spent for the
enjoyment of flying. You seem to believe that everyone should look at
the world through your lenses.
Nope, you're who said its "$130/hour", plus the monthly dues, because
you were trying to show that it wasn't any of your free hours from CAP.
But just how many years ago was that advice from? Looks like veryWe traveled all we wanted to this year and are still contributing to
savings. Two week cruise, two weeks Beaver Creek skiing, trips to see
family, 2 weeks Italy/Croatia, upcoming Rocky Mountaineer excursion
and a week in NAPA with family.
So you did finally take my advice from years ago and step it up;
better late than never.
No, this has been a typical travel year for us.
Travel is not constrained by finances and we can choose how we get
there. That includes paying for flying ourselves in a Cessna.
Oh, so you chose to take the Cessna to Italy? /s
Travel to Italy via my private plane is not constrained by finances. It
is constrained by the fact that I am not qualified to fly the that route
and I do not consider it safe unless I were to train for it. Time is
also a consideration.
And, BTW, we just traded the tired 10 year old CRV for a new Outback
with all the bells and whistles. Wrote a check for the difference.
The CRV which got mangled in that traffic circle fiasco?
Mangled? It had a dented fender and was out of the shop in 2-3 days. You must be thinking about the T-boned Insight incident that took 7 weeks to fix. The CRV had a 0 damage CarFax record and was sold in about 2 weeks.
It needed tires, a new windshield (wear and tear and small crack),
brakes, and was due for the 100,000 mile maintenance.
Nah, you're just trying to brag with something very average. Even after "decking out" the interior.In any event, your brag attempts need work, for a Subaru Outback isn't
an expensive ride: its MRSP is ~10% less than average new car cost of
~$50K today. And that's before noting that used prices are still high
for the net out of pocket.
I never said it was expensive relative to the entire market. It was $10k over the base price. We opted for the base engine but a decked out
interior.
Maybe next time, brag about dropping dime for a 2025 Cayman GT4.
No desire for that car. But could write that check too. I am not trying
to impress family and friends.
{post 2 merge ... Tommy made five (5) individual responses!}Liar, you are the one who assumed that the "scheduled" ETD in
That we did not make the time proposed time only reflects that
we found other things to do. Had we found more I would have
just changed the proposed time.
Which would have been fine if you had simply admitted upfront that you
were delayed by choice because you could (travel mode flexibility):
you're never going to win an argument against the reality of the clock.
FlightAware meant I was delayed by something to do with flying.
{post 3 merge ... Tommy made five (5) individual responses!}
And 600 miles RT in a 40+mpg Honda hybrid would be all of $50:;
that's a 90% savings over renting the Cessna.
And worth the difference to me. Stop whining.
Because Tommy *never* criticizes the choices of others! /s
{post 4 merge ... Tommy made five (5) individual responses!}
And 600 miles RT in a 40+mpg Honda hybrid would be all of $50:;
that's a 90% savings over renting the Cessna.
Second reply, missed this crappy thing you wrote.
(No he didn't; see #3, immediately above)
Only you would compare the flying time cost that includes fuel,
maintenance and depreciation to the marginal fuel cost for a
hybrid car.
;
Come on, you know that's not realistic. The 2025 IRS mileage
rate is $0.70. Make that $0.65 for my hybrid. On the same basis
as the airplane that is $422 if driving. That is not a 90%
difference, not even 50%.
Different accounting for different reasons. The incremental mileage
addition on a personal vehicle for an occasional trip just isn't that
expensive compared to other personal use factors. For example, a
dealership salesman looking at a 10 year old CRV trade-in isn't going
to offer you $650 more if it has 97,000 miles instead of 98,000 miles.
Likewise, retirees tend to drive less, so the expense of an oil change
may be zero because it was changed based on calendar, not mileage. Etc.
Bullshit. It all adds up over time and you know it.
As for flexibility, the airplane is the same as driving.
Sorry, its not: there's fewer airports than roads, and movement is
increasingly restricted with bad weather (wind/rain/snow/fog/etc).
Well you have a point there. Although I rarely cancel my flying trips I
have had to change plans because I was not driving.
FlightAware listed the departure time as 03:16PM: who told them that?{post 5 merge ... of Tommy's five (5) individual responses!}
But Tommy just said there was "No 'delay'"...so why this
backpedaling?
Third reply
You simply do not understand IFR flight plans.
Irrelevant.
Not so. Your lack of understanding led you to make a false claim about
the meaning of the times reported by FlightAware.
I get up in the morning, planning to drive somewhere, leaving
at 9:00. At 8:50 I see some emails demanding immediate replies,
and don't get away until 9:20. Is that backpedaling?
Your planned departure was undoubtedly delayed. If you try to deny
that your planned departure was delayed, then yes.
Delayed yes, but not backpedaling in this case. We were not delayed
because we never had a scheduled ETD, nor did I ever say there was.
There was no deadline at the time of our morning departure of the nextFlightAware documented the time filed in your flight plan as being at
leg to get home.
Now, suppose the smoke was too bad for VFR, I was not IFR current and qualified, or the aircraft was not IFR capable. As a result if I had
been planning on a departure that day and had to RON for better weather
for a day or two then that is a delay.
On 8/6/25 11:09, Tom Elam wrote:
On 7/31/2025 3:50 PM, -hh wrote:
I am paying. N5168V belongs to my flying club. It's $130/hour on the
Hobbs meter. That is all inclusive, including fuel. It will be about
5.5 hours up and back, so something like $715. Maybe a little more
or less depending on ATC and winds. Monthly dues are $165 whether
you fly or not. ...
This is small blip on our monthly income.
One would certainly hope so, given that its on an annual cost of at
least $2695 with this one flight, with ~3/4s of it being the fixed
membership fees.
In the meantime, for half as much on selected days, one can presently
fly two passengers, round trip US to/from Norway in Coach.
Or for those for whom its a 'small blip', figure roughly this much
for one pax RT if electing for higher-than-Coach seating. Similarly,
when a suitably good deal is found, add a two week cruise at just
$200/pp-
We fly more than one trip per year in club aircraft. You pro-rated the
dues over 5.5 hours. Bad math.
Bad, because one can only operate from the incomplete data you provide.
So despite your claim now of more than 1/yr, you've not delimited it,
such as in your below travel brag attempt, so there's no evidence to
rate the dues over more trips. In any event, even if its two or three
such trips, the car still works out to be a good deal cheaper.
And, you ignore the fact that I consider it money well spent for the
enjoyment of flying. You seem to believe that everyone should look at
the world through your lenses.
Nope, you're who said its "$130/hour", plus the monthly dues, because
you were trying to show that it wasn't any of your free hours from CAP.
We traveled all we wanted to this year and are still contributing to
savings. Two week cruise, two weeks Beaver Creek skiing, trips to see
family, 2 weeks Italy/Croatia, upcoming Rocky Mountaineer excursion
and a week in NAPA with family.
So you did finally take my advice from years ago and step it up; better
late than never.
Travel is not constrained by finances and we can choose how we getOh, so you chose to take the Cessna to Italy? /s
there. That includes paying for flying ourselves in a Cessna.
And, BTW, we just traded the tired 10 year old CRV for a new Outback
with all the bells and whistles. Wrote a check for the difference.
The CRV which got mangled in that traffic circle fiasco?
In any event, your brag attempts need work, for a Subaru Outback isn't
an expensive ride: its MRSP is ~10% less than average new car cost of ~$50K today. And that's before noting that used prices are still high
for the net out of pocket.
Maybe next time, brag about dropping dime for a 2025 Cayman GT4.
{post 2 merge ... Tommy made five (5) individual responses!}
That we did not make the time proposed time only reflects that
we found other things to do. Had we found more I would have
just changed the proposed time.
Which would have been fine if you had simply admitted upfront that you
were delayed by choice because you could (travel mode flexibility):
you're never going to win an argument against the reality of the clock.
{post 3 merge ... Tommy made five (5) individual responses!}
And 600 miles RT in a 40+mpg Honda hybrid would be all of $50:
that's a 90% savings over renting the Cessna.
And worth the difference to me. Stop whining.
Because Tommy *never* criticizes the choices of others! /s
{post 4 merge ... Tommy made five (5) individual responses!}
And 600 miles RT in a 40+mpg Honda hybrid would be all of $50:
that's a 90% savings over renting the Cessna.
Second reply, missed this crappy thing you wrote.
(No he didn't; see #3, immediately above)
Only you would compare the flying time cost that includes fuel, maintenance and depreciation to the marginal fuel cost for a
hybrid car.
Come on, you know that's not realistic. The 2025 IRS mileage
rate is $0.70. Make that $0.65 for my hybrid. On the same basis
as the airplane that is $422 if driving. That is not a 90%
difference, not even 50%.
Different accounting for different reasons. The incremental mileage addition on a personal vehicle for an occasional trip just isn't that expensive compared to other personal use factors. For example, a dealership salesman looking at a 10 year old CRV trade-in isn't going to offer you $650 more if it has 97,000 miles instead of 98,000 miles. Likewise, retirees tend to drive less, so the expense of an oil change
may be zero because it was changed based on calendar, not mileage. Etc.
As for flexibility, the airplane is the same as driving.
Sorry, its not: there's fewer airports than roads, and movement is increasingly restricted with bad weather (wind/rain/snow/fog/etc).
{post 5 merge ... of Tommy's five (5) individual responses!}
But Tommy just said there was "No 'delay'"...so why this
backpedaling?
Third reply
You simply do not understand IFR flight plans.
Irrelevant.
I get up in the morning, planning to drive somewhere, leaving
at 9:00. At 8:50 I see some emails demanding immediate replies,
and don't get away until 9:20. Is that backpedaling?
Your planned departure was undoubtedly delayed. If you try to deny that your planned departure was delayed, then yes.
-hh
On 2025-08-06 08:34, Tom Elam wrote:
On 8/5/2025 2:54 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-08-05 08:35, Tom Elam wrote:
On 8/4/2025 4:46 PM, -hh wrote:
On 7/27/25 12:35, Tom Elam tried to brag:
...
I'm flying up to Luddington Michigan on Wednesday to stay with
some friends in their backwoods cabin. Please please feel free to >>>>>> "stalk" me by pulling up N5168V on FlightAware. You can even track >>>>>> us real time. We plan to depart about 10 am EDT and be airborne
for about 2 hours.
https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N5168V
Didn't bother with this earlier, but for Tommy's return, looks like >>>>> he's encountering delay (TBD if its wildfire smoke or destination
weather):
Departing for the ~300 mile journey at 11:40am...figure 11AM if not >>>>> having to prep the Cessna, and Google Maps says 4:40 driving time,
so ETA to arrive back in Carmel IN would have been 15:40hrs
(+stops). Figure a generous hour break for lunch, ETA to arrive
home is roughly right about now (16:45).
But what does flight aware show for his actual?
Stuck on the ground in Kalamazoo (was scheduled 03:16PM EDT):
Takeoff 04:43PM EDT (but slipping by the minute)
Similarly,
Landing: was Scheduled 4:38m ... now 6:05pm (& slipping).
-hh
O
LOL! You just made the case for flying yourself somewhere. Thanks!
Yesterday we had a nice breakfast at the cabin and stopped at a
local market to shop for Michigan local delicacies on the way to the
airport. Among others, we bought some of the last sweet cherry crop.
We were not "delayed".
I fueled up and filed IFR (smoke from Canadian fires limited flight
visibility) to Kalamazoo. At cruise altitude there was no visible
horizon, but not an issue. Got to log some IFR time, a plus. Due to
the smoke I flew the GPS 17 approach to AZO.
We stopped there for a few hours to tour the Air Zoo museum
(https:// www.airzoo.org/) that is on the airport. We parked on the
ramp at the museum (http://tiny.cc/hesq001) Very enjoyable place,
try it some time. This stop was planned in July before we even left
home. No "delay" here either.
FYI the "scheduled" time in this case is what I filed. That is only
an estimate. You can pick up an IFR clearance 30 minutes before and
up to 2 hours after the filed time.
I had filed IFR to Eagle Creek but the smoke was not a factor at EYE
and did the visual to runway 3. Added some fuel, put the airplane
away, and bought dinner on the way home. We arrived on time.
Total time yesterday on the Hobbs was 3.1 hours, and that includes
taxi and ground time at Kalamazoo and waiting in line to takeoff.
Going up it was 2.5 hours on the Hobbs, and that was with some
headwinds.
We had a very enjoyable smooth-air trip both ways, albeit with
slight headwinds.
The days up there were incredible. This cabin borders Forest Service
land. We hiked, we bird-watched, we drove historic Michigan route
22, toured Sleeping Bear, shopped small local stores, had some
incredible meals at local eateries, paddled kayaks on a lake next to
the cabin, and attended the graduation concert at Interlochen Center
for the Arts (https://www.interlochen.org/) summer camp.
Mapquest shows 309 miles our home to Ludington, 4 hours 49 minutes.
With stops and traffic call it 6 hours. Total time door-to-door in
the airplane was about 4 hours. EYE-LDM distance is 285 miles, not
very different.
Return via Kalamazoo is 362 miles 5 hours 30 minutes. Flying time
was a little over 3 hours.
Did we save a lot of time. Not really. Is driving as enjoyable. Not
for us. We did not see another aircraft unless you count when we
were on the ground or via ADSB on the GPS.
I just looked at airline flights. One option found for next week is
IND- TVC (Traverse City) via Delta at only 3 scheduled hours and
$326 per person. By the time you add time from home to IND, airport
waiting, and driving TVC to the cabin, it would be more like 6-7
hours total. The airplane rental was $702, so about the same as this
Delta option. If you look at other options they are a bit less
expensive but take more time. BTW I have never lost a bag either.
You should not make assumptions about other people's plans.
Why not?
You do it literally all the time.
So you not racing this year was your plan? Interesting
See?
You're doing it again!
How do you speak to people like this in person without getting punched?
On 8/6/2025 12:21 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-08-06 08:34, Tom Elam wrote:
On 8/5/2025 2:54 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-08-05 08:35, Tom Elam wrote:
On 8/4/2025 4:46 PM, -hh wrote:
On 7/27/25 12:35, Tom Elam tried to brag:
...
I'm flying up to Luddington Michigan on Wednesday to stay with
some friends in their backwoods cabin. Please please feel free to >>>>>>> "stalk" me by pulling up N5168V on FlightAware. You can even
track us real time. We plan to depart about 10 am EDT and be
airborne for about 2 hours.
https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N5168V
Didn't bother with this earlier, but for Tommy's return, looks
like he's encountering delay (TBD if its wildfire smoke or
destination weather):
Departing for the ~300 mile journey at 11:40am...figure 11AM if
not having to prep the Cessna, and Google Maps says 4:40 driving
time, so ETA to arrive back in Carmel IN would have been 15:40hrs >>>>>> (+stops). Figure a generous hour break for lunch, ETA to arrive
home is roughly right about now (16:45).
But what does flight aware show for his actual?
Stuck on the ground in Kalamazoo (was scheduled 03:16PM EDT):
Takeoff 04:43PM EDT (but slipping by the minute)
Similarly,
Landing: was Scheduled 4:38m ... now 6:05pm (& slipping).
-hh
O
LOL! You just made the case for flying yourself somewhere. Thanks!
Yesterday we had a nice breakfast at the cabin and stopped at a
local market to shop for Michigan local delicacies on the way to
the airport. Among others, we bought some of the last sweet cherry
crop. We were not "delayed".
I fueled up and filed IFR (smoke from Canadian fires limited flight >>>>> visibility) to Kalamazoo. At cruise altitude there was no visible
horizon, but not an issue. Got to log some IFR time, a plus. Due to >>>>> the smoke I flew the GPS 17 approach to AZO.
We stopped there for a few hours to tour the Air Zoo museum
(https:// www.airzoo.org/) that is on the airport. We parked on the >>>>> ramp at the museum (http://tiny.cc/hesq001) Very enjoyable place,
try it some time. This stop was planned in July before we even left >>>>> home. No "delay" here either.
FYI the "scheduled" time in this case is what I filed. That is only >>>>> an estimate. You can pick up an IFR clearance 30 minutes before and >>>>> up to 2 hours after the filed time.
I had filed IFR to Eagle Creek but the smoke was not a factor at
EYE and did the visual to runway 3. Added some fuel, put the
airplane away, and bought dinner on the way home. We arrived on time. >>>>>
Total time yesterday on the Hobbs was 3.1 hours, and that includes
taxi and ground time at Kalamazoo and waiting in line to takeoff.
Going up it was 2.5 hours on the Hobbs, and that was with some
headwinds.
We had a very enjoyable smooth-air trip both ways, albeit with
slight headwinds.
The days up there were incredible. This cabin borders Forest
Service land. We hiked, we bird-watched, we drove historic Michigan >>>>> route 22, toured Sleeping Bear, shopped small local stores, had
some incredible meals at local eateries, paddled kayaks on a lake
next to the cabin, and attended the graduation concert at
Interlochen Center for the Arts (https://www.interlochen.org/)
summer camp.
Mapquest shows 309 miles our home to Ludington, 4 hours 49 minutes. >>>>> With stops and traffic call it 6 hours. Total time door-to-door in
the airplane was about 4 hours. EYE-LDM distance is 285 miles, not
very different.
Return via Kalamazoo is 362 miles 5 hours 30 minutes. Flying time
was a little over 3 hours.
Did we save a lot of time. Not really. Is driving as enjoyable. Not >>>>> for us. We did not see another aircraft unless you count when we
were on the ground or via ADSB on the GPS.
I just looked at airline flights. One option found for next week is >>>>> IND- TVC (Traverse City) via Delta at only 3 scheduled hours and
$326 per person. By the time you add time from home to IND, airport >>>>> waiting, and driving TVC to the cabin, it would be more like 6-7
hours total. The airplane rental was $702, so about the same as
this Delta option. If you look at other options they are a bit less >>>>> expensive but take more time. BTW I have never lost a bag either.
You should not make assumptions about other people's plans.
Why not?
You do it literally all the time.
So you not racing this year was your plan? Interesting
See?
You're doing it again!
How do you speak to people like this in person without getting punched?
Never been punched in my life.
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